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Sansha ship line-up brought up to par with other pirate factions
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Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-02-02 06:30:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
This would totally break the PVE nightmare. It already tears through L4 missions with ease.


Plenty of other ships do too, but they have combat uses outside L4 missions as well. I could concede a little on my proposed changes to the Nightmare, as those are lasers and have great range, but the Nightmare does badly need a buff -- L4 missions or not.


this
ships are not supposed to be balanced for PVE, ships are supposed(ly) to be balanced for PVP
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#62 - 2012-02-02 07:33:50 UTC
+1

I'd really like to fly one of those small spike b****s...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#63 - 2012-02-02 16:17:34 UTC
Barbie D0ll wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
This would totally break the PVE nightmare. It already tears through L4 missions with ease.


Plenty of other ships do too, but they have combat uses outside L4 missions as well. I could concede a little on my proposed changes to the Nightmare, as those are lasers and have great range, but the Nightmare does badly need a buff -- L4 missions or not.


this
ships are not supposed to be balanced for PVE, ships are supposed(ly) to be balanced for PVP


To be the devil's advocate, that's not strictly true. Take Marauders, for instance. I don't know of any sane person who would use them in PvP.

Some might argue the Rattlesnake is also balanced more towards PvE, due to its low but reliable damage, and gargantuan tank. I think it might have PvP uses, but people prefer Drakes for low-damage-high-tank instead.

In general, though, that's true. It should be especially so for a pirate warship.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-02-02 21:40:25 UTC
Having a nightmare myself... I must say, I think capless lasers would be OP'd.

The double laser damage bonus Sansha ships already have is in effect a 50% laser cap usage bonus - ie getting one of the sub-races skills for "free" (much like a vindi's +25% damage is the same as a 5% damage per level at lvl 5). It also reduces crystal consumption and fitting reqs (and is related to having utility highs.

I like the bonuses they have now. I just think their base stats need increasing:
Reduce the capacitor and shield recharge time, lets say by 33%
*maybe* +1 mid or low slot to each of the ships
+5-10% to base speed/agility
-give the Phantasm a 25 m3 drone bay, and the Nightmare a 90m3 drone bay (same as a hyperion)


As to the Rattlesnake: yea it needs fixing - its cheap because it blows.
If most of your DPS comes from drones... then you might as well get a Gila.
Also, a Domi out DPS's it be doing the same drone damage, and having more high weapon slots - that also have bonuses!

The Rattle is just an AFK brick.
Change that +100% cruise and torp velocity bonus to a +100% cruise and torp damage bonus, and you got yourself a boat that is going to command the same prices as the other faction BSs.

So what if the torp range bonus lets you reach out to longer ranges with torps?

Its still just 4 torps, with no damage bonuses.
With my change, I'd instead reach out with the equivalent of 8 cruise missiles, or be able to really put out DPS at close range.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-02-02 21:55:16 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

To be the devil's advocate, that's not strictly true. Take Marauders, for instance. I don't know of any sane person who would use them in PvP..


thats because marauders were designed to be PVE boats and also pre nerfed. and refer to my last post
Barbie D0ll wrote:
ships are supposed(ly) to be balanced for PVP
and CCP desgined marauders to be more or less one trick pony ships in the old days before carriers and supercapitals were flying everywhere. also, why take a marauder when you can take a carrier instead? carrier has more everything and also bonus points for being slightly less flying lossmail than a marauder as you can jump drive out if ships start pouring into the system.

or you can skip the marauder and carrier and go straight to supercarrier and titan
Vindictate
Vae Caudex Corporation
#66 - 2012-02-03 06:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vindictate
Actually I was going to bring up this issue and this thread seems perfect.
The other day I decided to maybe look into AC as a weapon as laser boats not even being able to fire while caapped is a massive downer. So I made up a quick spreadsheet that Ill link tho its not perfect (disclaimer its slightly confusing) as it compares T2 pulse/autocannon. Truthfully tracking on lasers is balanced by range and maybe instachange/forever ammo is balanced by rainbow ammo, (and fitting can be ignored) but dps wise AC use no cap and can apply about 85-90% that lasers can. Even with the sole bonus of Amarr ships +10% cap they are pretty nasty. Not that amarr need a buff just Sansha ships (partially derived from them at least skill/application wise) suffer the same cap hell. This doesnt take into account ammo as that is another beast altogether. But Sansha do need a buff in some fashion. Let me know what you think too as long as its 30% constructive.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoS02Q3WgjsydDVCcnFnZGotY0RjcC1CaHA2Ri11a2c&hl=en_US#gid=0

As for the NM id like to see a dps increase and maybe dronebay bump too and since lasers put out em/thermal I think the OP had it about right 1500-1600 dps sounds alright to me (even with the lower tracking)
haha who am i kidding i want 6 lows and 8 meds on it too....

The phantasm...... I dont even...
The succubus should be brought on par with the slicer (scorch @20km) or given a brawler role maybe 7-8kehp
also +1/bump/Signed
Vae Abeo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-02-03 06:52:45 UTC
Jumping on the bandwagon, the Nightmare should be on par with mach/vindi and maybe more so considering its drawbacks. And phantasm can be outdone by the harby in almost any role for 1/3 the cost....so there is that.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-02-03 07:24:31 UTC
Add a role bonus to Sansha ships:
100% to smartbomb range
100% to smartbomb damage
(/Crazy idea that might just work)
Viribus
Bayraktar Warlord
Aurora. Australis
#69 - 2012-02-03 12:06:49 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Averyia wrote:
so... guristas are balanced?

I'm still wondering why a rattlesnake is closer to faction navy ships than other pirates ships in jita.


Because Guristas ships don't get missile damage bonuses, and ships in general can only field a max of 5 drones. There's not much in the way of drone damage you can do to the Rattlesnake to make it have the damage of other pirate faction ships. However, outfitted with sentry drones and cruise missiles, the Rattlesnake can have a passive tank of somewhere in the vicinity of 1400 DPS and a buffer of 150k EHP without even using any faction/deadspace mods. Rattlesnake as is is not viable in PvP because of the limitations of drones, but it is the ultimate PvE ship.

In that way, it is balanced. So far as its price, I have no idea why it is so low at how popular it is. Maybe people run a lot of Gurista missions?

Edit: Also yes, Guristas are balanced. The Worm is an amazingly tanky frigate (more than most AFs) with amazing speed/agility, plus a bit of missile DPS. Its DPS is not spectacular, but it can take on a lot of things because of the versatility that the combination of missiles/speed/drones give it. It's like a super-Ishkur with a bit less damage. The Gila is a cruiser with a mega-Drake tank, faster and more agile than a Drake, and fielding a ton more damage because it can use a whole flight of heavy drones. It also has a bigger drone bay than a Dominix does. Completely worth the price.

However, this is not a thread about Guristas, but about Sansha ships. Get your own thread to talk about the 'Snake, and I might even reply to it!


Heh, tank isn't everything. Despite all that, marauders can fit a harder tank, and yet these days no one flies marauders or rattlesnakes. Because T3s and machariels blitz faster and unless you're some kind of idiot that aggros the whole room, tank is never an issue.

Plus a 5% resist bonus per level is hardly special when two other T1 battleships have the same bonus.

The problems with the Gurista ships is that:

- They essentially have split weapon systems, which always suck (and one of which doesn't even have a damage bonus)
- They're shield-tanked drone boats, which makes it inviable to use sentries.

On top of that, if you use heavies (so you don't cannibalize your tank with omnis and sentry damage augmentors) you have to get really close to whatever you're killing, which makes the missile range bonus even more worthless.

Basically no matter how you fit a gurista ship you're sacrificing or penalizing some bonus or attribute of the ship. They're not a focused design, which is why no one in their right mind uses them, which is why the rattlesnake is currently 400m less than the other pirate BS.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#70 - 2012-02-03 15:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
I m confused.... a nightmare with tachyons is a ******* EVIL NASTY beast. it can output well above 800 DPS to basically anything on the 10 to 100kms without any problems, got a lot of tracking with those huge turrets. it can be tanked to ALMOST navy scorpion levels and PVP wise, if you get tackled by one, you become roasted.

oh and the pulse version is even nastier D: its like a lazors vindicator.

that and sansha frigates i might be confused... but dont those frigates output like 500 dps?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#71 - 2012-02-03 16:09:34 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
I m confused.... a nightmare with tachyons is a ******* EVIL NASTY beast. it can output well above 800 DPS to basically anything on the 10 to 100kms without any problems, got a lot of tracking with those huge turrets. it can be tanked to ALMOST navy scorpion levels and PVP wise, if you get tackled by one, you become roasted.

oh and the pulse version is even nastier D: its like a lazors vindicator.

that and sansha frigates i might be confused... but dont those frigates output like 500 dps?


Heh, no. The Succubus does 200-300 dps tops, about what an AF does. However, it has 6-7k EHP, while AFs all have 10k+, and it's slower than most AFs as well. It should be at least equally powerful to the Retribution, if not more.

The Phantasm does about 550 DPS, and has ~40k ehp. The Imperial Navy Omen does the same damage but has 10-20k more EHP. It is however a bit slower. That doesn't matter very much though as the Harbinger outdoes both of them for a fraction of either of their price.

The Tach Nightmare is good, but hardly useful for anything other than missioning due to sniping being a poor strategy because of other mechanics. Up close, it is also good, but it is utterly outdone by the Abaddon in everything but tracking at 1/10 the price.

The problem is not specifically with the ships, but rather with the fact that far cheaper ships outclass the Sansha ships across the board. This is because Sansha ships don't have a "super special ability" like the Angels' speed/agility, the Blood Raider webs/neuts, etc. They are simply brawling ships. The trouble is that their strength at brawling is not proper for their price, and doesn't make up for their lack of "super special ability".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vae Abeo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-02-04 10:37:22 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
.

The Tach Nightmare is good, but hardly useful for anything other than missioning due to sniping being a poor strategy because of other mechanics. Up close, it is also good, but it is utterly outdone by the Abaddon in everything but tracking at 1/10 the price.

The problem is not specifically with the ships, but rather with the fact that far cheaper ships outclass the Sansha ships across the board. This is because Sansha ships don't have a "super special ability" like the Angels' speed/agility, the Blood Raider webs/neuts, etc. They are simply brawling ships. The trouble is that their strength at brawling is not proper for their price, and doesn't make up for their lack of "super special ability".


Its also worth noting that a Abaddon also has 4 useful mids even after fitting tank (and normally some gank w Heatsinks) to help with tracking etc. The Nightmare simply doesn't have the ability to brawl like that even tho they both have the laser/neut problem but the abaddon is mostly passive tank. The Nightmare needs a real niche and the bonuses it has now arent cutting it. It needs a DPS boost or a Tank boost or another role besides brawling to be viable other than a glorified incursion T3/ AMARR lvl 4 runner.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-02-04 10:54:30 UTC
the nightmare can always use more DPS or something else, as of "it will go though lvl 4s faster" i did a side by side comparison with a mach with both at max skills and implants on worlds collide with angels and sansha assuming we are skipping the gate guards, the mach clears the first room while the nightmare is only halfway done. proceeds to clear the second room and make out with the mission objective by the time the nightmare is done with the first room.
the nightmare could be given capless lasers and 1.5k dps with lasers alone and it still wouldn't be used in PVP.
however, if the nightmare was given capless lasers, 1.5k dps with lasers, and a 15% tracking bonus, then it would have a use in PVP assuming you don't mess with anything else. with the capless lasers the person could stick a MWD in the mid and be able to have a better chance of surviving.

but if the role of the nightmare was to dish out DPS without changing anything else to make up for its lack of everything else, i could see 2k dps with lasers alone as all the other pirate battleships are better at everything else, i may add more to this later
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-02-04 19:55:47 UTC
I'm getting the sense most agree that sansha ships lack a unique trait, they are just "brawlers" that aren't really all that good at brawling.

Rather than come up with new mechanics, just fix them so they do excel at "brawling".

Bump the base stats across the board:
5% more speed and agility
5% more HP and capacitor
5% better cap regen and shield regen
5% better PG and CPU (though this really isn't that limiting)
5% smaller sig radius
5% higher scan res, sensor strength, and targeting range.

All combined, it would make a big difference.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-02-05 07:03:49 UTC
bump
Vae Abeo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-02-06 04:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vae Abeo
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I'm getting the sense most agree that sansha ships lack a unique trait, they are just "brawlers" that aren't really all that good at brawling.

Rather than come up with new mechanics, just fix them so they do excel at "brawling".

Bump the base stats across the board:
5% more speed and agility
5% more HP and capacitor
5% better cap regen and shield regen
5% better PG and CPU (though this really isn't that limiting)
5% smaller sig radius
5% higher scan res, sensor strength, and targeting range.

All combined, it would make a big difference.

I think this isnt the way to go about it, all faction bs have a 7/5 layout and a 7 mid is pretty useful so adding mids/low would unbalance some things. In truth lasers need rebalanced to some degree (yes the harby and zealot are ok but most amarr ships bonuses cater to getting the lasers to work instead of being a real bonus) and we have capless lasers...Autocannons (but AC vs lasers isnt on this post). I know almost all amarr ships are just dps boats, and neuts wreck them when youre in an abaddon and you get neuted you are literally a golden brick, so lets keep that vulnerability so its not an i win button. I think the Nightmare should have:

.114 inertia Modifier
+5% cap/ cap recharge
+1 Turret
Remove 5% damage bonus per level of Caldari Battleship
Add bonus: "Caldari Battleship: 5% bonus to shield resistance per level
Change special ability to: "Special Ability: 250% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage"

What do you guys think?
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-02-06 08:40:14 UTC
bump
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#78 - 2012-02-06 18:09:13 UTC
Vae Abeo wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I'm getting the sense most agree that sansha ships lack a unique trait, they are just "brawlers" that aren't really all that good at brawling.

Rather than come up with new mechanics, just fix them so they do excel at "brawling".

Bump the base stats across the board:
5% more speed and agility
5% more HP and capacitor
5% better cap regen and shield regen
5% better PG and CPU (though this really isn't that limiting)
5% smaller sig radius
5% higher scan res, sensor strength, and targeting range.

All combined, it would make a big difference.

I think this isnt the way to go about it, all faction bs have a 7/5 layout and a 7 mid is pretty useful so adding mids/low would unbalance some things. In truth lasers need rebalanced to some degree (yes the harby and zealot are ok but most amarr ships bonuses cater to getting the lasers to work instead of being a real bonus) and we have capless lasers...Autocannons (but AC vs lasers isnt on this post). I know almost all amarr ships are just dps boats, and neuts wreck them when youre in an abaddon and you get neuted you are literally a golden brick, so lets keep that vulnerability so its not an i win button. I think the Nightmare should have:

.114 inertia Modifier
+5% cap/ cap recharge
+1 Turret
Remove 5% damage bonus per level of Caldari Battleship
Add bonus: "Caldari Battleship: 5% bonus to shield resistance per level
Change special ability to: "Special Ability: 250% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage"

What do you guys think?


without the resistance bonus it would lack tank badly, if you are all for brawling you need just 2 thinks, RAW DPS and RAW tank, taking away the tank and adding DPS wont do it.

i actually like the idea of making it get more DPS, with a damage bonus, tho currently i feel lasers just like hybrids have a problem, that is, they are stuck to a single type of damage, but projectiles outdo both DPS, tracking, Range wise and can can choose damage type.

so... buff sansha ships laser damage by adding all the ships a fixed role bonus of 20% ROF. (NO damage because then tachyons would be like artillery.) and it balances itself a bit out due to more cap use.
Vae Abeo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-02-07 03:24:33 UTC
[/quote]

without the resistance bonus it would lack tank badly, if you are all for brawling you need just 2 thinks, RAW DPS and RAW tank, taking away the tank and adding DPS wont do it.

i actually like the idea of making it get more DPS, with a damage bonus, tho currently i feel lasers just like hybrids have a problem, that is, they are stuck to a single type of damage, but projectiles outdo both DPS, tracking, Range wise and can can choose damage type.

so... buff sansha ships laser damage by adding all the ships a fixed role bonus of 20% ROF. (NO damage because then tachyons would be like artillery.) and it balances itself a bit out due to more cap use.
[/quote]

Have you flown a NM? i ask because 20% rof would murder cap also it doesnt come w a 5% resistance bonus i think it should have one since when you get neuted you wont be up the creek without a paddle also with 250% damage as a special ability and one turret hardpoint you would have (5*2.5) =12.5 effective turrets i think current its at 10 effective turrets and by not messing with the powergrid tachs wont be overpowered since i doubt 5 will fit

And yes this is more of a shameless bump than anything Big smile
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2012-02-07 07:00:02 UTC
Vae Abeo wrote:
I think this isnt the way to go about it, all faction bs have a 7/5 layout and a 7 mid is pretty useful so adding mids/low would unbalance some things. In truth lasers need rebalanced to some degree (yes the harby and zealot are ok but most amarr ships bonuses cater to getting the lasers to work instead of being a real bonus) and we have capless lasers...Autocannons (but AC vs lasers isnt on this post). I know almost all amarr ships are just dps boats, and neuts wreck them when youre in an abaddon and you get neuted you are literally a golden brick, so lets keep that vulnerability so its not an i win button. I think the Nightmare should have:

.114 inertia Modifier
+5% cap/ cap recharge
+1 Turret
Remove 5% damage bonus per level of Caldari Battleship
Add bonus: "Caldari Battleship: 5% bonus to shield resistance per level
Change special ability to: "Special Ability: 250% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage"

What do you guys think?

Well, it would certainly be a buff.
Instead of at lvl 5 having your turret damage be 4 turrets* 2x damage multiplier *1.25 = 4 *2.5x damage = 10 turret equivalent,
You change it to 5* 2.5 = 12.5 turret equivalent,
This amounts to a 25% increase in DPS, and "frees" a bonus
I like the idea of a resist bonus, and to change the role bonues damage multiplier from a 2x multiplier to a 2.5x multiplier and then drop the 5% per level sounds like a good idea to me.
A 5% resist per level would also be much appreciated.
A 5th turret may be OP'd, and it would murder your cap.
A cap / cap recharge buff would be very useful, and I still want to see a speed and agility buff, but these aren't so important.


So, for all sansha ships: drop the 5% laser damage per level, add a 5% shield resist per level.
Change the role bonus to be a 2.5x multiplier instead of a 2x multiplier.
Buff their cap.

Then I think we'd be on our way to a good ship.