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Warp to 0. Why ?
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#21 - 2012-01-16 16:02:04 UTC
WTZ was CCPs fast and easy reaction to the problem of instabookmarks on gates.
Personally I can understand why and how they did it this way, but I'd preferred another solution..

pro:
- database doesn't get hammered (lag while copying/browsing) for all those BM's any more
- ganks concentrate on the incoming instead of the outgoing (low/highsec) gate since then

con:
- size of New Eden feels smaller since then (especially for noobs)
- it removed a profession (it takes some skill to place a reliable insta bm at one of those small Amarr gates)
- it removed some tactical advantage of the locals vs foreigners
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-01-16 16:08:44 UTC
The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate. 
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Morganta
The Greater Goon
#23 - 2012-01-16 16:19:06 UTC
be a hero, warp to zero
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#24 - 2012-01-16 16:26:03 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Raneru wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:


My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?


If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0.

The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them.


Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.


Absolutely brilliant. BRILLIANT!!!

I've always wondered what an elegant solution would look like to the bookmark issue. One that would work completely independently of any sort of bookmarking. Now we have one. Gates would act like warp bubbles. Perfect. That solves every issue with "people would just make bookmarks 115km away".

As for the slowboating towards a gate AND AWAY from the gate- wow. That would really slow things down, but it might be nice to try. Something like this could totally change the way the game is played.

I would be up for something like this, but if it delays warp on both sides, maybe do 10km warp disruption radius instead of 15km, and we would have to do something about interdictor bubbles etc.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#25 - 2012-01-16 16:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
J3ssica Alba wrote:
The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate.

Imagine instead your ship could only make 10 LY/hr* on average, but you were free to choose the direction**. Still doom&Gloom?

*) average (shortest) distance of stars in New Eden:
arithmetic mean: 0.882 LY,
median: 0.837 LY
[IMG=http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4817/neshortestdistancegraph.th.jpg][/IMG]
data source: shortest distances to interconnect all stars with their nearest neighbour(s)

**) every ship has got a jumpdrive and no more gates. Basic principle: You set your jumpdrive for another star and can jump there.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#26 - 2012-01-16 16:28:50 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate.


It totally wouldn't. Regional markets would have a reason to be regional again. Couriers would have a job again. Space would be big again. We would see traffic on gates again.

It's not like you would be the only one affected. ALL freighter pilots would be affected, hence, the change is totally fair. If people want something moved faster, they can use faster, smaller transports.

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Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-01-16 16:47:04 UTC
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning, is fundamentally flawed and has been the cause of pretty much every problem ever. Also due to having so much built on it (to try to mitigate the problems caused by it) the core problem can never really be fixed.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#28 - 2012-01-16 16:59:17 UTC
I remember Pirates switching to sensor boosting Drakes around that time. The change made space seem smaller surely but definitely made travel more viable... certainly more spontaneous as you could more safely travel without previously bookmarking your route. I feel slightly nostalgic for yet another dying skill in the game but it went at the right time really.

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arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#29 - 2012-01-16 17:01:20 UTC
before you advocate changing something, grab a freighter, set a 10 jump path and (even if empty) try flying there by only warping to 15k and then come back and post again.

OR instead of changing the game for everybody, you could change the way you play the game and OPT-IN by warping to 15k at your own will for everything that you do. Last I checked, you can still do so if you like, just turn on auto-pilot lol
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-01-16 17:12:56 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning, is fundamentally flawed and has been the cause of pretty much every problem ever. Also due to having so much built on it (to try to mitigate the problems caused by it) the core problem can never really be fixed.

Very true. I remember that when I started playing EVE I originally imagined that systems would be occupied and defended from planetary defence systems and sattelites, not something like jump gates which create artificial bottlenecks.

It's too bad in a way that battles seem to be mainly directed towards gates without use of radar or other tracking systems.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-01-16 17:13:11 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.


Because its not fun. Over time they have made travel faster, and its a good thing. After they removed the super highways and before warp to zero it could take a long time to move around. There weren't even jump clones. We aren't talking a little longer, we are talking hours. Imagine spending your play time for the day traveling so maybe you could play the next. Its not a good thing.

Iris Bravemount wrote:
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?


Then you would just make 20km instas, or 30km, etc. You would have to get rid of bookmarks 100km around everything.

Iris Bravemount wrote:
The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.


They align slow or have low ehp. Put up a bubble or grab them as they align. They are still pretty easy to catch. The only exception are blockade runners, but that is what they are made to do. Or don't even bother, even a "tanked" industrial is easy to alpha. The industrial type ships that do have alot of hp are sloooowwwww. If you can't tackle a ship that takes 15 seconds to align your doing something wrong.

Iris Bravemount wrote:
I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.

So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?


It doesn't change much. You can just grab someone on the other side of the gate. Or you can just alpha their ship.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#32 - 2012-01-16 17:13:50 UTC
1) Jumping / Teleporting would be unaffected by this, and thus it would just be a hassle to you poor people without a fleet of jump freighters. It would make the game really annoying for 1 year characters. The last thing CCP wants is to make the game more tedious for nubs. Before warp to zero in EvE, travel was one of the most highly criticized sticking points w/ game reviews.

2) F'in bookmarks. 50-100 mil / region for 3-500. F*** that. (I'd give mine away for next to nothin' and have a few warp points that took low sec logistics into my camp Big smile)

3) People in EvE are clever. The mechanic you are suggesting would be pretty complex, and as complexity increases so too do the options for a player "work around". It's playing w/ fire.

Warp to zero was met w/ cheers from all over the game. It was one of the best things CCP did. Why do you want to spit on our cupcake?

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Morganta
The Greater Goon
#33 - 2012-01-16 17:21:41 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning


warning?
in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again?

you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning

and to the OP. there's plenty of stupid people auto piloting, quit crying about the ones who use their heads because the second one posts in here with gank rage everyone piles into the thread saying "play smarter"

just as they shouldn't be 100% safe, you shouldn't get 100% ganks either

we call that balance
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#34 - 2012-01-16 17:40:11 UTC
If we really thought a 15 km virtual warp bubble about each gate was a good idea, then the travel time thing can be be handled as a concurrent, balancing change.

Increase the agility and warp speed of the larger ships. Maybe increase the warp acceleration and warp speed of all ships. For freighters, buff the top speed a bit. That way it takes less time to get to warp, and less time in warp. That compensates for the need to slowboat 15 km.

But we still have the low sec issue: Without warp to zero people will avoid it even more than now. These are players who have no reason to show off their balls, and for whom adrenaline makes them feel drained and sick, and is to be avoided.

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Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-01-16 17:40:50 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you) and improve the rewards on courrier contracts.

It would also help freeing up some 0.0 space, by reducing fleet mobility and thus the space an alliance can defend.

On the other hand, it would give ratters and miners a bit more time to safe up when a red enters local.

As I said, I never knew the game without the warp to 0 feature, but I would love to try it.




I uderstand what you are saying but, no as this would just cause a HUGE inconvinience for players.

Thinking is good

Inconvinience is bad

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Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-01-16 18:21:20 UTC
Honestly the stupidity is that auto doesn't go to 0 in the first place and don't give me that "it gives the gankers a chance" nonsense, if you can't manage to catch something that takes close to a minute to warp on the other side you need to find a new career.

stoicfaux
#37 - 2012-01-16 18:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Blech. I remember pre-warp-to-zero. It was tedious.

If you absolutely must reincarnate WT15km as a bubble around every gate, then every ship should have a built-in MWD.


edit: WTZ, WT15km, same difference. Doh.

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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#38 - 2012-01-16 19:09:12 UTC
WTB autopilot WTZ


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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-01-16 20:53:50 UTC
15km crawl is a donkey punch in the balls. Think WTZ is some "magic exploit" that CCP needs to put back because it should fix it somehow? Try this: Undock in a BS in any station, go AFK, and com back in half an hour. Your not off grid, trust me. Now, if I was human and I know we all all, that slow ass crawl is boring as f*ck just as much as you driving along in traffic, get stuck on the off ramp for 5 minutes, get off the off ramp and waiting another 10 minutes to get in your turn lane on the street because there is construction so everyone is pinched in to 1 lane. Yes, I am sure we have all had those moments where we have had to crawl down a street at "ludicrious speeds" which just drives us batshit insane...crawling 15km at every gate is no different.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#40 - 2012-01-16 20:57:12 UTC
Your core game mechanic should NOT be tedious and time consuming. If you allowed people to warp to any gate within range (unlikely) then I'd be fine with some form of gate align time until jump etc, but since you often travel 10+ jumps in a game play session, that really adds up when you slow boat around, and doesn't make the game any more fun for the average eve player.

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