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Succubus, Phantasm, and the Nightmare just me or do they seem a little under the weather?
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#61 - 2012-02-02 11:01:36 UTC
Succubus and Phantasm could use like 20% more shield, a bit more speed, a proper capacitor and both a extra turret + fitting.

NM just a bit of a buff in the cap and speed department.


Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#62 - 2012-02-02 11:12:00 UTC
I would like to know what the ship's are supposed do.


Are they long range to contrast Bloodraiders?


Are they active tank to contrast Guristas?


Or are they just short range blood raider wanna bees?

May be a DEV will stop buy and clue us in to the thoughts behind the hull.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Sunviking
Doomheim
#63 - 2012-02-02 19:51:00 UTC
One of my old corp mates lost a Nightmare while they were running a C5 sleeper site last year. There was a carrier, logistics, spider tank helping out etc, and still the alpha from the cap escalation spawn melted her tank.

Tank and Cap just isn't good enough on these Sansha ships to withstand serious punishment.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#64 - 2012-02-02 20:17:28 UTC
Sunviking wrote:
One of my old corp mates lost a Nightmare while they were running a C5 sleeper site last year. There was a carrier, logistics, spider tank helping out etc, and still the alpha from the cap escalation spawn melted her tank.

Tank and Cap just isn't good enough on these Sansha ships to withstand serious punishment.


You have a point about the tank. Maybe the damage doesn't need to be buffed that much, but the tank does.

Succubus buff to make a MSE fit have (buffed) AF-level hit points (~12k).
Phantasm buff to make a LSE+Invuln fit have heavy BC-level hit points (~60-65k).
Nightmare buff to have more buffer than Abaddon (~200-220k).

This could even be done via shield resist buff (rather than raw shield buff) and in conjunction to the capless lasers, to appease those who like to active tank these ships.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#65 - 2012-02-03 00:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Sunviking wrote:
One of my old corp mates lost a Nightmare while they were running a C5 sleeper site last year. There was a carrier, logistics, spider tank helping out etc, and still the alpha from the cap escalation spawn melted her tank.

Tank and Cap just isn't good enough on these Sansha ships to withstand serious punishment.


You have a point about the tank. Maybe the damage doesn't need to be buffed that much, but the tank does.

Succubus buff to make a MSE fit have (buffed) AF-level hit points (~12k).
Phantasm buff to make a LSE+Invuln fit have heavy BC-level hit points (~60-65k).
Nightmare buff to have more buffer than Abaddon (~200-220k).

This could even be done via shield resist buff (rather than raw shield buff) and in conjunction to the capless lasers, to appease those who like to active tank these ships.


That seems to me like you're just trying to make them wanna-be Guristas ships now.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#66 - 2012-02-03 04:32:44 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Sunviking wrote:
One of my old corp mates lost a Nightmare while they were running a C5 sleeper site last year. There was a carrier, logistics, spider tank helping out etc, and still the alpha from the cap escalation spawn melted her tank.

Tank and Cap just isn't good enough on these Sansha ships to withstand serious punishment.


You have a point about the tank. Maybe the damage doesn't need to be buffed that much, but the tank does.

Succubus buff to make a MSE fit have (buffed) AF-level hit points (~12k).
Phantasm buff to make a LSE+Invuln fit have heavy BC-level hit points (~60-65k).
Nightmare buff to have more buffer than Abaddon (~200-220k).

This could even be done via shield resist buff (rather than raw shield buff) and in conjunction to the capless lasers, to appease those who like to active tank these ships.


That seems to me like you're just trying to make them wanna-be Guristas ships now.


Naw, Sansha ships do more damage, and it's all turrets, while Guristas have more tank, but it's all drones.

I still like buffing Sansha damage more, though. Make them similar to the Imperial Navy ships, except with slightly poorer tank, but better damage and tracking. As it stands now, an Imperial Navy Omen is as good as a Phantasm, and that is sad. (other than the tracking, of course)

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-02-03 10:10:17 UTC
it would seem to me that sansha ships should serve more as "melt stuff" than "tank stuff", but I do agree it could use a buff to tank as well as DPS
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#68 - 2012-02-04 14:25:59 UTC
I always found sansha ships to not only have some of the best

1) DPS and tracking

but also some of the best

2) Tanks

in the game. Maybe Im doing something wrong? I have no problem with any of the three ships.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-02-04 14:42:54 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
I always found sansha ships to not only have some of the best

1) DPS and tracking

but also some of the best

2) Tanks

in the game. Maybe Im doing something wrong? I have no problem with any of the three ships.


I have no problem running L4's in a Drake, it's just horribly inefficient compared to what I could be doing.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#70 - 2012-02-04 15:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
DHB WildCat wrote:
I always found sansha ships to not only have some decent

1) DPS and tracking

but also some decent

2) Tanks

in the game. Maybe Im doing something wrong? I have no problem with any of the three ships.

I dun fixed it, ma!

The thing is, take a look at a Succubus and it offers absolutely nothing special over the T2 or Navy counterparts to the ship. The Slicer is beastly fast with huge long range DPS and now with the Assault Ship boost, the Retribution has the tank and the gank to completely overshadow the Succubus, even with it's limited tackle ability. Also, I would rather fit out a scram range armor tanked Crusader for, what like, 20 - 25 million ISK? I've got a Crusader fit here that has nearly 5,000 EHP, does 1,400 M/S, and kicks out 200 non-over-loaded DPS with cheap implants.

Why would I fly a Succubus when the Slicer has a much more satisfying role in PvP, the retribution far overshadows it within scram range (it's seemingly intended role) and the Crusader is a much faster and cheaper alternative which also isn't that much worse than the Succubus at the same role - except it is missing a web and Nosferatu / Neutralizer high slots.

I think the Succubus, along with the Cruor, need a boost, but I am not sure I am sold on a tanking boost.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#71 - 2012-02-04 15:55:45 UTC
Cruor is fine. Has enuff fitting for 2 pulses, 2 NOS, 2 T2 small reps a MWD, a scram, and a web.
If any thing its the Ashimmu that needs a look at.


But this is about Sansha's ships just not being very Sansha's .... what ever that is.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#72 - 2012-02-04 16:57:34 UTC
I could care less about EHP (it's boring), but give NM some speed/agility and it'll shine just like it should. Gate hugging isn't something you'd need to bring a pirate ship for.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#73 - 2012-02-04 17:08:31 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Cruor is fine.

No it isn't. It's a piece of crap, it has DPS that is hardly competitive with T1 frigates and a sub-par tank. You also cannot really utilize the Neutralizer bonus because it uses lasers and you aren't "allowed" to fit a cap booster because of the idiotic web bonus.

It's bonuses and slot layout are completely conflicting. You can get kills in it VS the right targets, but it's still a pile of fail.

Not sure which is worse, Succubus or Cruor to be honest. At least the Succubus can get respectable DPS and good tracking.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#74 - 2012-02-04 18:02:19 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Cruor is fine.

No it isn't. It's a piece of crap, it has DPS that is hardly competitive with T1 frigates and a sub-par tank. You also cannot really utilize the Neutralizer bonus because it uses lasers and you aren't "allowed" to fit a cap booster because of the idiotic web bonus.

It's bonuses and slot layout are completely conflicting. You can get kills in it VS the right targets, but it's still a pile of fail.

Not sure which is worse, Succubus or Cruor to be honest. At least the Succubus can get respectable DPS and good tracking.

The cruor still feels bloodraiders and still dose the job of catching and holding things. Is it the best at that no.
The succubus and the Sansha's ships as a whole don't do anything.

The succubus 25% damage and 37.5% to tracking do not grant it any thing the other Pirate frigs don't already have, accept for the Cruor witch gets 2 Ewar bonuses. The Cruor can still bring mild cap war fair to the gang buy droping its lasers for more neut, It can still bring heavy webbing. The Succubus can bring ok DPS and weak cap war fair.
If your just talking 1v1 then I guess the Cruor is weak compared to every other pie frigg in the DPS department. But lots of ships 1v1 bad vs. Daredevils and Dramiels.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#75 - 2012-02-04 20:02:51 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
The cruor still feels bloodraiders and still dose the job of catching and holding things. Is it the best at that no.

First of all, Bloodraiders suck for the most part, except for the Bhaalgorn, so "feeling Bloodraiders" isn't much of a redeeming feature for the Cruor. Secondly, the Cruor is a pirate frigate. Do you really think it's role should be catching and holding things? This is a role that not only the Daredevil is better at, but cheap fit Interceptors are designed to do. Is 90% web worth being ridiculously expensive and being seen as a juicy killmail in the eyes of any enemies you see?

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
The succubus and the Sansha's ships as a whole don't do anything.

Yeah, I agree, they are one of the two terrible groups of pirate faction ships (the other one being the Bloodraiders).

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
The succubus 25% damage and 37.5% to tracking do not grant it any thing the other Pirate frigs don't already have.

Yeah they do, they grant a high DPS laser platform with a decent tank, because there isn't another one of those, just a low DPS, low tank, slow-boating webbing mobile.

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
The Cruor can still bring mild cap war fair to the gang buydroping its lasers for more neut, It can still bring heavy webbing.

Typos man Big smile

K but seriously, if you're going for a Neutralizing argument, then why not just bring a Sentinel? Or better yet, an Arbitrator. Come on, man, throw me a freakin' bone here, the Cruor is "fine" because it can bring 90% webs to a gang? I don't think so.

It might sound like I'm trying to defend the Succubus here but I'm not. I'm simply saying, yes, the Sansha ship lineup needs a fix, but no, the Bloodraider ships are not fine, not at all.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
OfBalance
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-02-04 20:09:42 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Sansha ship lineup needs a fix, but no, the Bloodraider ships are not fine, not at all.

+1
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-02-05 10:24:05 UTC
3 reasons why i think the Succubus is gimped and broken.
worst ehp and speed out of all the pirate frigs.
worst slot layout by far, 2 utility highs. (cruor has neut bonus so utility high are usefull).
pulse lasers have the worst tracking. even with the tracking bonus blasters still track better and ACs are pretty close.

Phantasam is pretty decent tbh but,
2 utility highs make no sense.
it has cap issues and it is slow.
the tracking bounus is nice but again blaster w/o a tracking bonus still track better and AC are not far behind.
cap is terrible.
not saying its a bad ship, just saying i wish it would have been better.

Nightmare is fine. though again imho should have only 1 utility high.

so to sum it all up.
all 3 are have the worst align/ehp/speed.
worst tracking weapon system that is also very cap hungry.
to much utility high slots.
just to much gimp on one hull for no reason.
Metesurena
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-02-05 17:32:14 UTC
nightmare is seeing some use in PVE, but the others are kinda useless

perhaps remove 1 utility high from phantasm and succubus and give them another mid/low and tweak their fitting, speed and/or ehp

I have nearly maxed skills for them, but never bothered flying them because they seem so ****** in eft no matter how you fit them