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Counter to self-destruct.
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Callous Jade
Dockturnal Bromance
#1 - 2012-01-15 01:24:47 UTC
Several very simple ways of eliminating those self-destructs that are used to escape a dire combat situation:

1. Have self destruct require capacitor.
- Would make neuts an even more important factor in the destruction of caps/supers/pimp rides.
- Makes sense as you would likely need some sort of power to initiate a self destruct sequence on a huge vessel.

2. Have the self destruct timer be reset by ewar.
- Would provide a viable counter for small gangs/solists to keep something on hand that keeps a superior vessel from destructing before help can arrive.
- Doesnt make as much sense as the neuting.

Both ways would still allow use of self destruct in a hopeless situation or one where the enemy was not well prepared.

Thoughts?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2012-01-15 01:41:56 UTC
Why is a counter needed?

Also: bring more guns.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3 - 2012-01-15 01:47:46 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
Several very simple ways of eliminating those self-destructs that are used to escape a dire combat situation:

1. Have self destruct require capacitor.
- Would make neuts an even more important factor in the destruction of caps/supers/pimp rides.
- Makes sense as you would likely need some sort of power to initiate a self destruct sequence on a huge vessel.

2. Have the self destruct timer be reset by ewar.
- Would provide a viable counter for small gangs/solists to keep something on hand that keeps a superior vessel from destructing before help can arrive.
- Doesnt make as much sense as the neuting.

Both ways would still allow use of self destruct in a hopeless situation or one where the enemy was not well prepared.

Thoughts?
But they don't escape, they die. It's just a way of denying you loot and a KM, as well as intel. So why does this need to stop? The scuttling of ships is a well known and long use action, emulated to a degree with SD.

You do realise that this discussion is all but moot, as the chances are CCP are going to change this anyway. But you would know this of course, due to your search for similar suggestion first before posting. amirite?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Swiftsoul Tian
Hardcore Smoochies
#4 - 2012-01-15 10:55:29 UTC
BTW: If I self-destruct and have a reward on me, do I get it then? ^^ I mean a kill is a kill ^^
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-15 11:06:52 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
self-destructs that are used to escape a dire combat situation:

Thoughts?


Escape is not perhaps the right word, the ship is destroyed either way, loot denial is a valid tactic, perhaps I would support Damage from third parties on killmails for self destructs.

My opinion is that Killmails should go to those that inflict the largest amount of Damage anyway.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2012-01-15 11:11:09 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Callous Jade wrote:
Several very simple ways of eliminating those self-destructs that are used to escape a dire combat situation:

1. Have self destruct require capacitor.
- Would make neuts an even more important factor in the destruction of caps/supers/pimp rides.
- Makes sense as you would likely need some sort of power to initiate a self destruct sequence on a huge vessel.

2. Have the self destruct timer be reset by ewar.
- Would provide a viable counter for small gangs/solists to keep something on hand that keeps a superior vessel from destructing before help can arrive.
- Doesnt make as much sense as the neuting.

Both ways would still allow use of self destruct in a hopeless situation or one where the enemy was not well prepared.

Thoughts?
But they don't escape, they die. It's just a way of denying you loot and a KM, as well as intel. So why does this need to stop? The scuttling of ships is a well known and long use action, emulated to a degree with SD.

You do realise that this discussion is all but moot, as the chances are CCP are going to change this anyway. But you would know this of course, due to your search for similar suggestion first before posting. amirite?

The scuttling of ships is well documented, but the scuttling of "front of the line" ships in two minutes flat, sometimes before they are even engaged? Pretty sure that's singular to Eve.

Also, unless people keep making these threads, CCP will put it down on their list of priorities. And it will take them another two years to get round to doing anything about it.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Valei Khurelem
#7 - 2012-01-15 11:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
NO!


But seriously, I think self-destruct is a great denial tool and the only thing that should be changed is that it does AoE damage dependent on the size of the ship and the amount of explosives in the cargo hold.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#8 - 2012-01-15 11:55:11 UTC
Self Destruct:
-Advantages
--Denies loot
--Allows losing party to end the fight

-Disadvantages
--Flat duration
--Denies encounter

There are cases where self destruct is certainly needed. For instance, a pilot is tackled by an opponent and there is now a stalemate. The aggressor refuses to disengage despite being unable to secure a victory, while the defender finds that after some time real life commitments force him to log off. Without a self destruct ability, the choice would be to either give the attacker a complete ship by ejecting, or to log off and die. Neither of these make sense, so the ability to self destruct falls between them where the attacker receives no loot, and the defender is able to end the fight.

The first problem with SD is that there is no scaling of time for the size of the vessel. A supercarrier should take longer to self destruct than a frigate. The second problem is usually most contentious; no killmail is generated and the entire incident can be denied. I feel that most proposed solutions aim to address this issue, but end up infringing on any balanced use of self-destruct in that pursuit.

So, I must say this proposal does not improve things in a balanced way.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2012-01-15 12:13:43 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Mag's wrote:
But they don't escape, they die. It's just a way of denying you loot and a KM, as well as intel. So why does this need to stop? The scuttling of ships is a well known and long use action, emulated to a degree with SD.

You do realise that this discussion is all but moot, as the chances are CCP are going to change this anyway. But you would know this of course, due to your search for similar suggestion first before posting. amirite?

The scuttling of ships is well documented, but the scuttling of "front of the line" ships in two minutes flat, sometimes before they are even engaged? Pretty sure that's singular to Eve.

Also, unless people keep making these threads, CCP will put it down on their list of priorities. And it will take them another two years to get round to doing anything about it.
The Bismarck was, according to survivors, scuttled during a fight but I digress.

CCP already have this on their radar and have said that KMs should be given, so these threads are quite pointless.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-01-15 15:50:59 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
Butthurt Oops


Only reason people self destruct, is to make you pissed off.

People want to be awarded a KM, like they did something yet they didn't actually do much because they lacked the foresight to bring more damage....its like that runner up prizes they give to kid's sports teams so everyone is a winner and no one is a loser. Truth is harsh, too bad no one will tell those brats they are failures.

EVE is harsh isn't it? So because you failed to kill someone in a timely manner, you deserve a KM just so you can feel like a winner ? News flash, you are a failure if you didn't kill something inside 2 minutes.

If everyone agree's that it is the miner's fault for not planning ahead and he AFK's his hulk, doesn't watch local, doesn't check Dscan, doesn't even plan for any contingency his hulk might get ganked....then everyone would have to agree that if you can't plan to bring larger numbers or have a cap ship on standby for a cyno then infact SD is fine as is because you already have 2 minute notice and should plan accordingly to destroy any other ship in EVE short of SC and Titans inside of 120 seconds.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-01-15 17:07:58 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
May look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly get.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Goose99
#12 - 2012-01-15 17:33:26 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Won't look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly not get.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2012-01-15 17:45:22 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Won't look into this in the future. Killmails you should certainly not get.



Give that man a Bells!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Callous Jade
Dockturnal Bromance
#14 - 2012-01-15 19:45:57 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Callous Jade wrote:
Butthurt Oops


Only reason people self destruct, is to make you pissed off.

People want to be awarded a KM, like they did something yet they didn't actually do much because they lacked the foresight to bring more damage....its like that runner up prizes they give to kid's sports teams so everyone is a winner and no one is a loser. Truth is harsh, too bad no one will tell those brats they are failures.

EVE is harsh isn't it? So because you failed to kill someone in a timely manner, you deserve a KM just so you can feel like a winner ? News flash, you are a failure if you didn't kill something inside 2 minutes.

If everyone agree's that it is the miner's fault for not planning ahead and he AFK's his hulk, doesn't watch local, doesn't check Dscan, doesn't even plan for any contingency his hulk might get ganked....then everyone would have to agree that if you can't plan to bring larger numbers or have a cap ship on standby for a cyno then infact SD is fine as is because you already have 2 minute notice and should plan accordingly to destroy any other ship in EVE short of SC and Titans inside of 120 seconds.


I think anyone with half a brain can see where the butthurt lies. Also pretty obvious which side of the self destruct you have found yourself on.

I was just throwing out an idea that popped into my head, sorry it made you so mad that you felt the need to rant on about hulks and other crap that is completely unrelated. Big smileBig smile

The primary reason anyone self destructs is to hide their lossmail, not to deny loot or a killmail, but to hide the shame and imminent ridicule from their peers due to losing a freighter to a frigate. In the end you still lost and they won, deny the loot all you want.

Im also well aware that at some point CCP will make you cry some more by adding the killmail at the very least, I just thought of a way that might still give the destructee a chance in a sitation where the aggressor(s) were not well prepared for the possibility...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-01-15 19:47:17 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Only reason people self destruct, is to protect their precious ~elite pvp kill/death ratio~.

Fixed that for you.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#16 - 2012-01-15 19:50:30 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Only reason people self destruct, is to spite gang bangers who farm kms for lolz.*

Quoted for truth*.


I fixed that for you.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Callous Jade
Dockturnal Bromance
#17 - 2012-01-15 20:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Callous Jade
Mag's wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Mag's wrote:
But they don't escape, they die. It's just a way of denying you loot and a KM, as well as intel. So why does this need to stop? The scuttling of ships is a well known and long use action, emulated to a degree with SD.

You do realise that this discussion is all but moot, as the chances are CCP are going to change this anyway. But you would know this of course, due to your search for similar suggestion first before posting. amirite?

The scuttling of ships is well documented, but the scuttling of "front of the line" ships in two minutes flat, sometimes before they are even engaged? Pretty sure that's singular to Eve.

Also, unless people keep making these threads, CCP will put it down on their list of priorities. And it will take them another two years to get round to doing anything about it.
The Bismarck was, according to survivors, scuttled during a fight but I digress.


The details regarding this are in dispute but one thing that is not disputed is the fact that the ship was utterly crippled by the Brits well before she was sank in earnest. But by all means go with the (abbreviated) version of history that best supports your argument. Roll
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-01-15 20:14:38 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I fixed that for you.

You know very well I'm closer to the truth than you are.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Goose99
#19 - 2012-01-15 21:19:24 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Only reason people self destruct, is to spite gang bangers who farm kms for lolz.*

Quoted for truth*.


I fixed that for you.

I, farmer of kms, humper of kb, am saddened by truthCry
muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-01-15 23:04:20 UTC
If they ever make it so you can prevent a self destruct, ill hold someone in a pod after i kill them in a sanctum or belt, and sit there for as long as i can, just to annoy the **** out of someone.

This, is why they haven't done it.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"
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