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CCP Kill AFKING-Summer Expansion 2012 Campaign
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met worst
Doomheim
#161 - 2012-01-15 01:35:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
met worst wrote:
0.0 is mostly about anoms, totally scannable and approachable even while cloaked.
So why aren't you suggesting the obvious solution then: make anomalies deadspace with fixed warp-ins?

This very solution has been raised. In effect, a cloaky can effectively be ignored right up until he flips out probes. Probes will immediately tell you he's not AFK and the threat can be countered or ignored at your peril.

It removes "non-counterable" system denial. For mine this will improve the average members "enjoyment" of 0.0 (increased participation?) and force blops etc. to also be smarter as the opportunities to bring the fight to them will be there.

PS: As an added benefit, this would enhance the argument to remove local.

PPS: In fact, make ALL resources, including asteroid belts - through all sectors - as sigs. MAKE people hunt/rat/mine actively and in many cases, co-operatively.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#162 - 2012-01-15 01:36:09 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When you go to 0.0, don't join a sh!tty renter alliance with 3 guys online tops. 0.0 is meant to be dangerous, if you go there you are better be prepared.

When a neut shows up in local you just tell in corp chat and have 4-5 buddies come camp the system.

What can the cloakie do then? If he stays cloaked, no problem. If he uncloaks he can get caught by a camp. If he gets on grid he can be attacked by the above buddies.

If he cynos 8000 supercaps, you were to lose that place anyway and probably did not deserve to be there.

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?



We are ussualy 20 people at least on.Your point?
Also i HAVE to be in th BIG DAMN ALLIAMNCE OR SHUT UP?Really?

Hey there buddy I was just telling VV how much I like her. Calm down, little guy.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#163 - 2012-01-15 01:36:23 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
… I wasnt there to defend them becasue i cant play 24/7, or able to catch the thief thats hiding inside my house.


Space is not a house that can be locked up and the windows boarded over. Space in EVE is more like a series of plains, with tall mountains cutting them off from each other, with very narrow mountain passes allowing you to move from one plain to the other. Someone can hide out in the middle of the plain without your permission, since you don't have control of the passes.

If you're not there to defend people 24/7, perhaps you need more pilots from different time zones to ensure that your space is defended 24/7. The other folks can bring that to the table, why can't you?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#164 - 2012-01-15 01:37:01 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When you go to 0.0, don't join a sh!tty renter alliance with 3 guys online tops. 0.0 is meant to be dangerous, if you go there you are better be prepared.

When a neut shows up in local you just tell in corp chat and have 4-5 buddies come camp the system.

What can the cloakie do then? If he stays cloaked, no problem. If he uncloaks he can get caught by a camp. If he gets on grid he can be attacked by the above buddies.

If he cynos 8000 supercaps, you were to lose that place anyway and probably did not deserve to be there.

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?



We are ussualy 20 people at least on.Your point?
Also i HAVE to be in th BIG DAMN ALLIAMNCE OR SHUT UP?Really?

Hey there buddy I was just telling VV how much I like her. Calm down, little guy.


Sorry wrong quote...geting late here...
met worst
Doomheim
#165 - 2012-01-15 01:37:11 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Morganta wrote:
btw I've spent the last 4 hours cloaked up in a system in low sec reading and posting to these terrible threads

was I AFK?


Yup....



and how do you figure
I'm in space, in a ship, using the ingame browser, posting to garbage threads on one screen and watching local on the other

thats about as ATK as it gets.

your whole argument is null and void, since you don't even know what AFK is

C'mon Morgs. You're better than this. Usually.
Alara IonStorm
#166 - 2012-01-15 01:37:15 UTC
Mag's wrote:
No derailment, only facts. Sorry they don't sit well with you.

That is Ok the penalty for having a different opinion in GD is to be lined up before the firing squad.
Cyzlaki
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#167 - 2012-01-15 01:38:13 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, a lot of people will probably scream that the AFK cloaker can't do anything, which is true, but you never know when he is really afk or not. Yes there are tactics against this, but most of them involve having a fleet on standby for a possibly indefinate amount of time.

So you either live with the fact that your miners or ratters can be ganked at random with zero warning or chance to defend themselves, or you exhaust your own people while trying to mount a defense. The cloaker has still all advantages because he can decide when and if he is willing to engage.

One of the results is, that alliances without access to moon goo and being dependant on mining or ratting can be easily kept from using their space and will always be at the disadvantage to the super alliances.


Valid tactic. Denying alliances the space they grinded structures so long for is one of the sweetest things in EVE. Your tears sustain me.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#168 - 2012-01-15 01:38:44 UTC
met worst wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
This very solution has been raised. In effect, a cloaky can effectively be ignored right up until he flips out probes. Probes will immediately tell you he's not AFK and the threat can be countered or ignored at your peril.
.


so you want an early warning system

yup, more self serving bullshit from gutless pubbies
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#169 - 2012-01-15 01:38:46 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
… I wasnt there to defend them becasue i cant play 24/7, or able to catch the thief thats hiding inside my house.


Space is not a house that can be locked up and the windows boarded over. Space in EVE is more like a series of plains, with tall mountains cutting them off from each other, with very narrow mountain passes allowing you to move from one plain to the other. Someone can hide out in the middle of the plain without your permission, since you don't have control of the passes.

If you're not there to defend people 24/7, perhaps you need more pilots from different time zones to ensure that your space is defended 24/7. The other folks can bring that to the table, why can't you?



The first Borken logic so far it maid me laugh.
THEy send ONE pilot in cloakie.
I hAVe to bring a Whole buch of people to play together from all the TZs to counter him.
Really??
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#170 - 2012-01-15 01:40:03 UTC
I know someone is afk in my wh ... I KNOW IT!
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#171 - 2012-01-15 01:40:04 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, a lot of people will probably scream that the AFK cloaker can't do anything, which is true, but you never know when he is really afk or not. Yes there are tactics against this, but most of them involve having a fleet on standby for a possibly indefinate amount of time.

So you either live with the fact that your miners or ratters can be ganked at random with zero warning or chance to defend themselves, or you exhaust your own people while trying to mount a defense. The cloaker has still all advantages because he can decide when and if he is willing to engage.

One of the results is, that alliances without access to moon goo and being dependant on mining or ratting can be easily kept from using their space and will always be at the disadvantage to the super alliances.


Valid tactic. Denying alliances the space they grinded structures so long for is one of the sweetest things in EVE. Your tears sustain me.



Being in school...I salute you oh might wariior!!
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#172 - 2012-01-15 01:40:29 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
This is a thread requesting CCp to take a position on the matter, and as a suggestion for the next expansion.If you agree, just Bump!!


CCP have taken a position on the matter: local in null sec is not being changed. Cloaking is not being changed. It is up to you and your alliance to use the tools readily at your disposal to sort out your own issues.

As a hint: a covert ops ship cannot recloak for 15 seconds. A ship using a covert ops cyno is stuck uncloaked in space for a couple of minutes. Thus the minimal effort required to defend from an "AFK" cloaked is a ship in the belt with the sensitive targets that can lock a stealth bomber in less than 15 seconds, along with someone probing for the covert ops cyno projector. You don't need to know where that ship is, you just need to be looking for new signatures in space.

Is this situation asymmetric? Certainly. That doesn't prevent you taking the appropriate risk management measures.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
met worst
Doomheim
#173 - 2012-01-15 01:40:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I do not see how it would break Wormhole Space which would still be without Local and Static entrances while having system effects for dynamic gameplay. Perhaps it would change but not break.
I'll refer you to Ingvar Angst's thread(s) in F&I (don't have the links, but they should be easy enough to find if you search) for the full argument. In essence, the problem is that if you can detect cloaked ships at all in W-space, that knowledge causes changes in behaviour that makes any intel gathering effort rather futile.

Being able to detect cloaked ships reduces their value as recon tools, and that's also why the main complaint outside of W-space isn't about them being used for recon, but for the exact opposite: intel-disruption — because their recon ability is greatly diminished by them being automatically detected.

And OP said as much really (unless he has changed his tune). The argument is not about whether to allow/disallow cloak - it's the ability to be very effective, yet uncounterable, when AFK.

As to the premise of your post, totally agree.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#174 - 2012-01-15 01:40:46 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No derailment, only facts. Sorry they don't sit well with you.

That is Ok the penalty for having a different opinion in GD is to be lined up before the firing squad.
As long as you're there with your sniper rifle, all will be well. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#175 - 2012-01-15 01:42:12 UTC
met worst wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I do not see how it would break Wormhole Space which would still be without Local and Static entrances while having system effects for dynamic gameplay. Perhaps it would change but not break.
I'll refer you to Ingvar Angst's thread(s) in F&I (don't have the links, but they should be easy enough to find if you search) for the full argument. In essence, the problem is that if you can detect cloaked ships at all in W-space, that knowledge causes changes in behaviour that makes any intel gathering effort rather futile.

Being able to detect cloaked ships reduces their value as recon tools, and that's also why the main complaint outside of W-space isn't about them being used for recon, but for the exact opposite: intel-disruption — because their recon ability is greatly diminished by them being automatically detected.

And OP said as much really (unless he has changed his tune). The argument is not about whether to allow/disallow cloak - it's the ability to be very effective, yet uncounterable, when AFK.

As to the premise of your post, totally agree.

I still keep my opinion.Dont Break Cloak, Fix AFK
met worst
Doomheim
#176 - 2012-01-15 01:42:53 UTC
Morganta wrote:
met worst wrote:
[quote=Tippia]
This very solution has been raised. In effect, a cloaky can effectively be ignored right up until he flips out probes. Probes will immediately tell you he's not AFK and the threat can be countered or ignored at your peril.
.


so you want an early warning system

yup, more self serving bullshit from gutless pubbies

lolz. And you want an uncounterable advantage.

More bullshit from a gutless pubbie. Totally agreed.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#177 - 2012-01-15 01:43:33 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?


Thank you. I believe anyone who went to 0.0 for a purpose beyond passive ratting (I won't say botting) should have documented himself a bit, should have acquired and accepted the "zero safety net" mindset, the concept of "emergent game play", should leverage in friends or at least corp mates.

This might be a game, but 0.0 is not a joke.
You don't go in savannah watching lions without a clue, without a map, without a guide, without friends, without a defense.

Anyone who really believes in the "0.0 blue bears safer than hi sec" has just to try *get there* with some 30-40 jumps in prime time and see how "safer" it is.

There is a reason why I bought containers for 200k in hi sec and resold at 5M in 0.0 and certainly it was not because of fuel cost.

I know this is way out of the current mentality but it's needed to accept the responsibility and consequences of the actions.

AFK cloakers are an annoying mechanic created to harass weaklings who did not go there prepared.

You don't fix AFK cloaking, you fix being an unprepared weakling.

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Alara IonStorm
#178 - 2012-01-15 01:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Tippia wrote:
I'll refer you to Ingvar Angst's thread(s) in F&I (don't have the links, but they should be easy enough to find if you search) for the full argument. In essence, the problem is that if you can detect cloaked ships at all in W-space, that knowledge causes changes in behaviour that makes any intel gathering effort rather futile.

Being able to detect cloaked ships reduces their value as recon tools, and that's also why the main complaint outside of W-space isn't about them being used for recon, but for the exact opposite: intel-disruption — because their recon ability is greatly diminished by them being automatically detected.

That would certainly change the nature of how Wormholes work and how Recon Intel is gathered in them. Not saying it breaks Cloaking or Wormholes but definitely those tactics within them.

Perhaps a Possible Workaround would be to have Recon done by a second ship like the Cov Ops that can evade D-Scan detection while the trailing fleet remains vulnerable to detection. Leave Stealth tactics to the Combat Ships and Stealth Recon to the Cov Ops.
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#179 - 2012-01-15 01:45:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?


Thank you. I believe anyone who went to 0.0 for a purpose beyond passive ratting (I won't say botting) should have documented himself a bit, should have acquired and accepted the "zero safety net" mindset, the concept of "emergent game play", should leverage in friends or at least corp mates.

This might be a game, but 0.0 is not a joke.
You don't go in savannah watching lions without a clue, without a map, without a guide, without friends, without a defense.

Anyone who really believes in the "0.0 blue bears safer than hi sec" has just to try *get there* with some 30-40 jumps in prime time and see how "safer" it is.

There is a reason why I bought containers for 200k in hi sec and resold at 5M in 0.0 and certainly it was not because of fuel cost.

I know this is way out of the current mentality but it's needed to accept the responsibility and consequences of the actions.

AFK cloakers are an annoying mechanic created to harass weaklings who did not go there prepared.

You don't fix AFK cloaking, you fix being an unprepared weakling.



First of all you take yourslev way too seriously.
Second, Did i havent already said tha i havent died ever to a cloakie?
Miners thu.....
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-01-15 01:45:24 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What's invalid about being AFK?

It isn't, just an undesirable use of the Mechanic in the eyes of some players who think the design of the Cloaking System should be discussed and looked over.

The thing is, AFK cloaking is currently the only counter to something else that's undesirable: the ubiquitous, unavoidable, and 100% reliable intel tool called Local. As long as it exists, AFK cloaking needs to exist as well as a means of disrupting and diluting that intel.


Oh Wormholes..They are lovely this year dont you think?and you tend not answer me when i mention them...



So, why are you and your few dozen supporters not calling for a nerf to local instead?

A bit disingenuous if you are going to use that argument.


I at the same time think that local is an easy source of intel and like it being that way.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn