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CCP Kill AFKING-Summer Expansion 2012 Campaign
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Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#121 - 2012-01-15 00:57:58 UTC
Morganta wrote:
btw I've spent the last 4 hours cloaked up in a system in low sec reading and posting to these terrible threads

was I AFK?


Yup....
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-01-15 00:58:21 UTC
Xuko Nuki wrote:
Why do local ghosts frighten the ferocious 0.0 warrior?

Not all people who live in 0.0 are afraid of invisible people in local. I am probably very biased since I am a member of a very rich and powerful Alliance which controls a very vast amount of space, but if I see a neutral or red in local I just don't do anything in local without a fleet. I will go to a different system, or I will broadcast for a home defense fleet if the person in question is actively shooting at myself or other people. I do not mean to sound snarly, but these options are open to anyone. If you do not have enough people in your corporation, coalition, friends list or whatever to form a defense fleet that will allow you to be safe, then you should develop your social skills (out of game) and try to make more friends; if you do not have other systems that you can use, then you need to conquer or negotiate for more space.

The tools that allow me to not care at all about AFK cloakers are available to everyone in this game. Certain people have used those tools; certain other people have not. This is literally a case of the "haves," versus the "have nots," and if you are a "have not," then you should seek to become a "have".

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-01-15 00:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyris Nairn
Ghost of Truth wrote:

Lyris Nairn wrote:

I know this is a really foreign concept for some people to accept, but there exist certain players and groups of players whom are content to accept the game as implemented and instead of whining about it adapt themselves and their game play so as to exploit whatever changes to the mechanics. Perhaps she is one of those people?



Are we playing the same MMORPG that had the JITA PROTESTS???
Those where about ..ahme ...implementations.....I didnt recall teh group of people called Goons b to accpet the changes and b e againts the riots and say to everyone shut up....

If you recall, Goons did not take part in the Jita protests; instead, we voiced our concerns to our CSM representatives, whom in turn voiced concerns to CCP.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Alara IonStorm
#124 - 2012-01-15 00:59:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:

The thing is, AFK cloaking is currently the only counter to something else that's undesirable: the ubiquitous, unavoidable, and 100% reliable intel tool called Local. As long as it exists, AFK cloaking needs to exist as well as a means of disrupting and diluting that intel.

That is a whole other issue and masking it with what some would say is a lame mechanic is a band-aid on a gaping flesh wound.

Removing Local is not really a viable answer with Cloak Mechanics in place. It makes Cloaked Alpha Strike Camps way more deadly with the ability to go AFK for hours Strike and disappear with no chance at even a fight unless you have Cloaked Ships on grid 24/7 for every PvE exercise. The counter for a localess environment interconnected by static star gates is impractical at best.

One Mechanic to at least detect their presence and a second to find them if they don't keep mobile would alleviate the issue. The question is would detecting their presence lead to a Local Replacement just as effective or can it curb the intel just enough to give active players a fighting chance against the threat. Perhaps compromises can be made to D-Scan Range with counters on both sides using modules to extend that range or hide certain aspect near the edges of such range like throwing up static.

I have seen a lot of opinions on this and I think that D-Scan detection and anti cloak T2 Destroyer probes that work about 5 minutes after a target has entered the system or as soon as they leave the gate grid are what I would like personally.
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#125 - 2012-01-15 00:59:57 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Xuko Nuki wrote:
Why do local ghosts frighten the ferocious 0.0 warrior?

Not all people who live in 0.0 are afraid of invisible people in local. I am probably very biased since I am a member of a very rich and powerful Alliance which controls a very vast amount of space, but if I see a neutral or red in local I just don't do anything in local without a fleet. I will go to a different system, or I will broadcast for a home defense fleet if the person in question is actively shooting at myself or other people. I do not mean to sound snarly, but these options are open to anyone. If you do not have enough people in your corporation, coalition, friends list or whatever to form a defense fleet that will allow you to be safe, then you should develop your social skills (out of game) and try to make more friends; if you do not have other systems that you can use, then you need to conquer or negotiate for more space.

The tools that allow me to not care at all about AFK cloakers are available to everyone in this game. Certain people have used those tools; certain other people have not. This is literally a case of the "haves," versus the "have nots," and if you are a "have not," then you should seek to become a "have".


Guess i am part of teh haves...but still think its broken?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-01-15 01:01:01 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Xuko Nuki wrote:
Why do local ghosts frighten the ferocious 0.0 warrior?

Not all people who live in 0.0 are afraid of invisible people in local. I am probably very biased since I am a member of a very rich and powerful Alliance which controls a very vast amount of space, but if I see a neutral or red in local I just don't do anything in local without a fleet. I will go to a different system, or I will broadcast for a home defense fleet if the person in question is actively shooting at myself or other people. I do not mean to sound snarly, but these options are open to anyone. If you do not have enough people in your corporation, coalition, friends list or whatever to form a defense fleet that will allow you to be safe, then you should develop your social skills (out of game) and try to make more friends; if you do not have other systems that you can use, then you need to conquer or negotiate for more space.

The tools that allow me to not care at all about AFK cloakers are available to everyone in this game. Certain people have used those tools; certain other people have not. This is literally a case of the "haves," versus the "have nots," and if you are a "have not," then you should seek to become a "have".


Guess i am part of teh haves...but still think its broken?

I am also a "have," but I do not think it is broken because I have never personally seen evidence of it harming anything.

Can you give me some concrete examples of how it is harmful to game play?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#127 - 2012-01-15 01:01:33 UTC
I spent 17 hours reading and translating in the drone lands only to discover that i was not going to do any drone site thay had 90% of its value in mins. Sad some one should have told me they were crap before hand. Wonder why the 12 navy ravens in system were all sitting in the pos shields? surely they could take 1 ship and I have never died using a cyno. Nore by my history do I fly in large fleets.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#128 - 2012-01-15 01:02:56 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Xuko Nuki wrote:
Why do local ghosts frighten the ferocious 0.0 warrior?

Not all people who live in 0.0 are afraid of invisible people in local. I am probably very biased since I am a member of a very rich and powerful Alliance which controls a very vast amount of space, but if I see a neutral or red in local I just don't do anything in local without a fleet. I will go to a different system, or I will broadcast for a home defense fleet if the person in question is actively shooting at myself or other people. I do not mean to sound snarly, but these options are open to anyone. If you do not have enough people in your corporation, coalition, friends list or whatever to form a defense fleet that will allow you to be safe, then you should develop your social skills (out of game) and try to make more friends; if you do not have other systems that you can use, then you need to conquer or negotiate for more space.

The tools that allow me to not care at all about AFK cloakers are available to everyone in this game. Certain people have used those tools; certain other people have not. This is literally a case of the "haves," versus the "have nots," and if you are a "have not," then you should seek to become a "have".


Guess i am part of teh haves...but still think its broken?

I am also a "have," but I do not think it is broken because I have never personally seen evidence of it harming anything.



Can you give me some concrete examples of how it is harmful to game play?


As i said before, go to the main thread.Plenty of discuss about it.This thread is not for that.Is for the Summer expansion Fix.
met worst
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-01-15 01:03:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Oh Wormholes..They are lovely this year dont you think?and you tend not answer me when i mention them...
What about them?
They just prove that AFK cloaking isn't a problem (nor is cloaking in general).

Wrong. WH is mostly about sigs that need probes to be dropped and are therefore detectable - CCP specifically made that change to d-scan to allow it.

0.0 is mostly about anoms, totally scannable and approachable even while cloaked.

But you already know this Tippia - you just be playing silly games.

Try just playing with the term AFK as much as you like - only thing you seem to know anything about - wordsmithing.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2012-01-15 01:04:45 UTC
Clementina wrote:
I know how to play this game quite well met worst.

Suppose Alice is in one of your systems AFK in a covert ops frigate, she says in local 'AFK be back later', Then goes to sleep for 8 hours, the goes to work for another 8 hours. During that time a large botting operation doesn't function because they don't know if Alice is AFK or not.

At the same time Bob is in a Tengu with a covert ops reconfiguration. He plays for 4 hours. First he gathers intel on your mining op and then relays that to your enemies who then come disrupt it, then he goes and ganks someone ratting, and after that he jumps to another system and cynos dozens of supercapitals on top of your fleet that was just forming. Tired, he flies to a safespot and logs off.

Alice was AFK for 16 hours
Bob was playing hard for 4 hours.
Who did more damage? When you can answer that, you can see why your whining about AFK cloakers looks so stupid to everyone else.

This was a really good post that illustrates my perspective very well. Wonderful use of realistic examples!

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-01-15 01:07:42 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Xuko Nuki wrote:
Why do local ghosts frighten the ferocious 0.0 warrior?

Not all people who live in 0.0 are afraid of invisible people in local. I am probably very biased since I am a member of a very rich and powerful Alliance which controls a very vast amount of space, but if I see a neutral or red in local I just don't do anything in local without a fleet. I will go to a different system, or I will broadcast for a home defense fleet if the person in question is actively shooting at myself or other people. I do not mean to sound snarly, but these options are open to anyone. If you do not have enough people in your corporation, coalition, friends list or whatever to form a defense fleet that will allow you to be safe, then you should develop your social skills (out of game) and try to make more friends; if you do not have other systems that you can use, then you need to conquer or negotiate for more space.

The tools that allow me to not care at all about AFK cloakers are available to everyone in this game. Certain people have used those tools; certain other people have not. This is literally a case of the "haves," versus the "have nots," and if you are a "have not," then you should seek to become a "have".


Guess i am part of teh haves...but still think its broken?

I am also a "have," but I do not think it is broken because I have never personally seen evidence of it harming anything.



Can you give me some concrete examples of how it is harmful to game play?


As i said before, go to the main thread.Plenty of discuss about it.This thread is not for that.Is for the Summer expansion Fix.

What you want this thread to be about, and what the posters in this thread clearly desire it to be about, do not seem to be congruent and you should probably adapt to that. What did you want this thread to do exactly? From the way you keep shooting down people trying to talk with you about the topic mentioned in the thread's title and in your original post, it sounds like you just want people to avoid posting in it except to bump it so that it will remain on the first page unopposed. That simply is not going to realistically happen. This thread has evolved into a discussion of AFK cloaking, in particular a few interested parties asking you repeatedly what the specific game play mechanic is that you'd like to change and why you want it to be changed. Continuing to ignore these questions will not accomplish anything positive for you, and neither will telling people how they should post.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#132 - 2012-01-15 01:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Wel Ill admit some thing to get a general idea of a cloaked ships were abouts would be useful, it would have to only give you on grid like a very basic idea like just a blip. And even then it should be a delayed effect with a visual cue that the cloaker can see and make a judgment call as to stay or warp. It should not strip them of cloak.




*EDIT
acule a voice that sead not on gate that would do it.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-01-15 01:08:48 UTC
met worst wrote:
Tippia wrote:
met worst wrote:
OP, rest assured, this is a HOT TOPIC and has been for a VERY long time.
No, it's a whined about topic that people have refused to solve on their own for a very long time because they're too lazy/stupid to make use of the myriad of tools at their disposal.

For an equally long time, the same whiners have had problems explaining what the actual issue is, and they adamantly refuse any attempt to go after the root causes of their issues.

Hell, the OP can't even explain why AFK:ing needs to be killed, so how on earth can it be even a slightly balmy issue, much less a hot one?

So HOW do you counter a AFK cloaker Tippia? Particularly from the safety of highsec.

There is NO counter. THAT'S the problem you idiot.

Take this to it's usual merry-go-round lack of conclusion mate. Easier if you just crosspost your drivel from your last attempt at derailing this topic.

If you DON'T KNOW why it's a problem, just stfu already.

If you DO KNOW why it is a problem, then please elaborate for everyone who keeps asking.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#134 - 2012-01-15 01:09:45 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Clementina wrote:
I know how to play this game quite well met worst.

Suppose Alice is in one of your systems AFK in a covert ops frigate, she says in local 'AFK be back later', Then goes to sleep for 8 hours, the goes to work for another 8 hours. During that time a large botting operation doesn't function because they don't know if Alice is AFK or not.

At the same time Bob is in a Tengu with a covert ops reconfiguration. He plays for 4 hours. First he gathers intel on your mining op and then relays that to your enemies who then come disrupt it, then he goes and ganks someone ratting, and after that he jumps to another system and cynos dozens of supercapitals on top of your fleet that was just forming. Tired, he flies to a safespot and logs off.

Alice was AFK for 16 hours
Bob was playing hard for 4 hours.
Who did more damage? When you can answer that, you can see why your whining about AFK cloakers looks so stupid to everyone else.

This was a really good post that illustrates my perspective very well. Wonderful use of realistic examples!


Broken Logic?
ALice and bob can bee the same person you know 16 28 72 hours afk come back , whreak havoc afk again,System frozen forever ....
Aslo, how BOTs came back to the discussion?
Aslo what if the miners, are some times of day more than teh Pve/pvpers that provide ?They mast stop playing?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2012-01-15 01:13:39 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

Truth!
If you're constantly aligned (like you should be), then even a Recon uncloaking beside you will not be able to tackle you.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#136 - 2012-01-15 01:15:54 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

Truth!
If you're constantly aligned (like you should be), then even a Recon uncloaking beside you will not be able to tackle you.


Oh realy?How now picture that with a carrier or a noob hulk pilot...
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#137 - 2012-01-15 01:15:59 UTC
We are just being trolled by 12 year olds who cannot seem to link to their "other thread" when asked, and cannot even quote responses properly.

Try crapping in one hand and wishing in the another that CCP will pay any attention to you and see which hand fills-up faster.


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#138 - 2012-01-15 01:16:17 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Removing Local is not really a viable answer with Cloak Mechanics in place.
Maybe. Depends on what you consider the problem with those mechanics to be. It would completely remove AFK cloaking, though and as long as people define it in those terms, it is the ultimate solution.
Quote:
One Mechanic to at least detect their presence and a second to find them if they don't keep mobile would alleviate the issue.
It would also break cloaking, and completely ruin W-space.
met worst wrote:
0.0 is mostly about anoms, totally scannable and approachable even while cloaked.
So why aren't you suggesting the obvious solution then: make anomalies deadspace with fixed warp-ins?
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#139 - 2012-01-15 01:17:42 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
We are just being trolled by 12 year olds who cannot seem to link to their "other thread" when asked, and cannot even quote responses properly.

Try crapping in one hand and wishing in the another that CCP will pay any attention to you and see which hand fills-up faster.





Oooohhhhh Shocked the age tactic........
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-01-15 01:19:54 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Clementina wrote:
I know how to play this game quite well met worst.

Suppose Alice is in one of your systems AFK in a covert ops frigate, she says in local 'AFK be back later', Then goes to sleep for 8 hours, the goes to work for another 8 hours. During that time a large botting operation doesn't function because they don't know if Alice is AFK or not.

At the same time Bob is in a Tengu with a covert ops reconfiguration. He plays for 4 hours. First he gathers intel on your mining op and then relays that to your enemies who then come disrupt it, then he goes and ganks someone ratting, and after that he jumps to another system and cynos dozens of supercapitals on top of your fleet that was just forming. Tired, he flies to a safespot and logs off.

Alice was AFK for 16 hours
Bob was playing hard for 4 hours.
Who did more damage? When you can answer that, you can see why your whining about AFK cloakers looks so stupid to everyone else.

This was a really good post that illustrates my perspective very well. Wonderful use of realistic examples!


Broken Logic?
ALice and bob can bee the same person you know 16 28 72 hours afk come back , whreak havoc afk again,System frozen forever ....
Aslo, how BOTs came back to the discussion?
Aslo what if the miners, are some times of day more than teh Pve/pvpers that provide ?They mast stop playing?

Bots come back into the discussion because bots, their designers knowing that they are not combat capable and cannot react quickly to dangerous situations, will simply not do their gainful activity when local is not safe; in other words, when local has a neutral or red, be he AFK or otherwise, cloaked or otherwise, the bot will either log off or go to a safe spot and cloak. The implication that the poster is making is that the only people who really need to worry about AFK cloakers are those people who run bots, because their income from bot mining or bot ratting will be significantly hampered. I personally agree with that perspective, because a real player can simply make sure that his ship is always aligned to something while he is mining or ratting—a safe spot, a stargate, a station, or whatever. So long as the real player is actively at the keys and watching his overview, he will be able to see a ship uncloak and hit the "Warp" button to escape faster than the uncloaking ship can target him, due to the targeting delay penalty imposed by cloaking devices compounded by the scan resolution-versus-signature radius of the two ships.

In short, so long as you are not yourself AFK or inattentive you have nothing to fear from an AFK cloaker.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn