Crime & Punishment

The Problem with this is all those newbies don't do Incursions anymore. They have either become group 1 or 2, or have been shooed away by the stuck up Incursion runners who only want the skilled.

And cake. Mustn't forget that.

So only nullbears do Incursions to fund their PVP? Really? Not everyone is a -10 who spends 5 hours a day in HIC or T3 gang on a lowsec entry gate somewhere close to Jita.

Yes you are screwing the new players in cheaper ships and fits. Currently its shiniest fleets bitterly competing (12 man fleets with 2 logis ffs) cutting each others income into what you maybe find acceptable. Everyone else is completely screwed and can only join n-th assault suicide fleet people make for *****, giggles and tears. Even if they live trough a random assault fleet they are better off just doing L4s.

Just couple of days back when there were 3 high-sec Incs open; there were T1 fleets and they were pushing their way trough sites. Someone they'd be contested by shinies, sometimes not. Now when everyone is cramming into a single Inc to get as much as they can before someone closes it; they don't stand a remote chance.

How much of EVE is in high-sec? 80%? More? And how many of them are doing incursions? Couple thousand? I'm confident that infinite bounty and mission reward faucets of that vast mass of people outweigh Incursions.

Null has upgraded systems, faction spawns, and there is always someone who knew a guy who heard about a guy who's friend killed an officer spawn.

Lowsec... lowsec has... 5/10 DEDs. And that's it. 4/10 are in highsec also; 6+ are in 00. Mining in lowsec is... who the hell ever mines anywhere? L4 missions? You need a (nearly) unprobeable Tengu for that; just go to null and do Angel missions and provide more cheap Cynaballs an Drams for gentlemen whining about evil highsec carebears causing inflation and having too much isk.



To finish. Out of couple hundred thousands highsec characters maybe 5-10k are doing incursions. And in absolutely best cases getting 140-160M/hr (that is with 0 tax). In a equally shiny ship as one needed for that number you'd do L4s for 90-120m/hr.

T1 ship with proper fits can reach and breach those numbers in 00 belts an upgraded anoms. Those are both pure isk faucets. DED plexes can bring insane profits but they don't pump money. But they area there, all from 6/10 and up, available to nullsec players.

Lowsec is junk and serves only to try and get fights and no other purpose. Nerfing highsec will not bring people into lowsec.

The fact remains - CCP left the door open for this. There is no in-game mechanic preventing players from running the Mothership. They could have (and still can) easily implement a system whereby you had to run a certain amount of incursions to gain access to the Mom, a la mechanics in WoW for running bosses. They chose not to, and thus sanctioned the closing of Incursions if and when people decided to get a fleet together and do it. Just because it doesn't serve your purposes doesn't mean it's not a legitimate way to play the game.

Everybody always pounds their chest about EVE's 'sandbox' (a term over and misused in relation to the game), but in this case it works. Everybody vs everybody. If you don't like Incursion farming, you go kill the Mom. If you don't like people killing the Mom, kill them. Otherwise suck it up. You'll have a bit of running Vans and Assaults before the Mothership shows, you get your isk and finish it off, or someone else will. How is the competition for that any different than the competition for anoms/scanning sites, or Sov territory, or even the market? It's a fundamental principle that the game is built on - competition for resources.

You say it shuts people out of needed isk? Go do something else. There's more than one corner of the sandbox to play in. No, missions don't pay as much, but people were funding their play with them and other activities long before Incursions came around.

tl;dr - you're not entitled to Incursions any more than anything else in the game. If you want it, go take it. Otherwise find something else to do.

Good posting, we need more like this.

I wasn't there.
I wanted to be there.
I will be there next time.

That's quite "allright". The weak succumbs to the cunning / better / more prepared.
Not a very educational or constructive philosophy but that's EvE.

So, when does it turn in "wrong"? Not when T1 fleets are beaten by restricted cartels. That's EvE.
It's wrong when *either* T1 fleets or those cartels exploit the game mechanics to prevent it from complete.
That has nothing to do with being in a Dominix (!) vs in a super-pimp 3B ship. It is about the exploit.
Exploits are always bad in games, because they tilt a planned balance into something exaggerated else.




Wrong. About 1000-1.500 are trading in Jita and probably about another 1000 are spread in the other major hubs.
On a macro perspective they are performing market optimization in a negative sum game (ISK sink). Zero sum minus fees.

About 50 to 130 ice miners per system and other tens roid miners are probably going to form about 30% of the hi sec player base. They are producing zero ISK, only materials. Those without perfect refining skills are actually subject to ISK sink.

Some thousands missioneers. They both create ISK and destroy ISK (LP is an ISK sink). The ISK per pilot is capped by:

- them being alone. Some missions actively check for more pilots (triggers). This makes NPCs impact on that pilot with their EWAR and so on.
- missions duration and ending are controlled. Blitz to get much LP or do full mission to get more bounties? The two are counter-balanced. Some will (or used to, I quit EvE for a while and it might have changed) farm the mission tomorrow and in some next days. 1 day "cooldown" is forced anyway.
- most have to refit / refill / jump systems at each new mission. Some of this may be mitigated with multiple accounts but then the revenue per account lowers.
- there is a good mission every some "crap" missions. Be it faction / drones / "duo of death" (warp and warp just for 2 ships) and similar, not all the missions grant full income.


Exploited incursions instead:
- you do them in fleets, this allows to have better coverage against the NPC "tricks".
- duration and ending are circumvented, ISK can be made in droves.
- multiple jumps required to get there but once at the place it's done.
- only the best revenue sites are done, there's always and only top revenue.





... and despite this, the mass of 0.0 and WH players prefer to run hi sec incursions. It's because they are better than all the goodness you linked. If it wasn't, they would not bother. When something turns into the Klondike and attracts the masses, then that something is just the best. In RL Klondikes tend to self nerf (deplete), in MMOs the developers have to manually nerf them.


Furthermore...


(If you are lucky get to drop useful) officer drops are rare enough that they cost a lot. Incursions aren't.
Officer drops are NOT an ISK faucet. You get an item, someone else pays the money. Money switches pockets, it's not created out of the blue and not reliably.




BPCs are not an ISK faucet. Someone else provides the ISK.




L4 missions have been nerfed, multiple times. That was a nerf. Not to hi sec but to ALL sec, since L4 were run by 0.0 alts (L4s were that much better than farming 0.0 PvE).
Removing an exploit instead is not an hi sec nerf. It's a fault fix. A fault because once again 0.0 alts and even WH players had to get back to hi sec to find the BEST carrot.



Edit:

Why hi sec incursions are the best of the best, despite the others sec incursions yield more potential income?

1) Because carebears won't go anywhere else.
2) Because PvPers lose their ships in PvP already, and then want to recoup the losses, not to risk more ships "grinding back" the money.

I hope all you hisecers who decided to help 00 overlords gain power over their members enjoy having your characters burned from running any decent fleets in the future.

It may not happen now but later when you go to run them you will notice you will spend alot of time in space with no invites. And that will never change because YOU decided to side with those who were only using you to further their own ends.

This was NOTHING about channel bans. This was about forcing members into CTAs. And you fell for it.

Skunkworks is highsec, Lead Farmers are wormhole dudes... of the three that did this, only Brick is nullsec. And Darius didn't even want to ask Bricks if they'd like to come because he felt he'd lose cred asking nullsec pvpers to come do highsec grief. He was surprised by the amount of positive response he got.

In short, none of the '00 overlords' were behind this.

As for sitting in space with no invites, I can still get into fleet on this very character. But more importantly, we would be ec-*******-static if nobody had invites, because nobody cared, because those with the motivation were off trading calculated risk for better money.

In short, I don't think you really grasp the tenor of the whole situation.

Edit: Warsmiths, I keep bumping into your guys, both in game and on the forums. Is the universe conspiring to make us fight?

Why should he potentially slow his CTAs by getting many nullsecers to actually lift a finger when he has fools in hisec doing his dirtywork? Fall for the "Gonna save teh hisec from Incursion runners" bit and end up burning your characters in the process to serve them.