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Are Hurricanes pointless?
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Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-01-15 00:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Name Family Name
Cyzlaki wrote:

But the medium turrets already have good tracking and less than half the DPS, so which do you think appears to benefit more from this, the large turrets or the medium? Even if medium turrets hit for wrecking every shot the large guns are still going to out perform them.



And that is a problem because ...?

Large Turrets cost more, are more skill intense and the ships have their drawbacks - probably that may make the Talos very powerful in its niche thanks to blasters good base tracking, a tracking bonus and a drone bay on top.

Fine - now Gallente have their Drake/Cane too...

Cyzlaki wrote:
Name Family Name wrote:
So - the Gallente Tier 3 BC outperforms the Minmatar Tier 2 at speed and EFT DPS whereas dealing damage is pretty much it's only role whereas the Hurricane is more versatile and tanks better...

Sounds like it's working as intended.

No one flies the cane because it has a 'good tank'.. lol.


That doesn't change anything about the fact that it tanks better than a Talos.

Quote:

So that leaves with you 'more versatile'. Which isn't really saying anything other than it can fit neuts. Which a Curse does much better so it doesn't really have a role there. I guess it can kill frigs good. But so can frigs, destroyers, and cruisers.

Hurricane is pointless.


The Hurricane is versatile and plainly the better ship for most purposes than e.g. a Ferox, Harbinger, Prophecy, Myrm or Brutix. Yeah - Gallente have a 'best' ship in an easily accessible, widley needed niche now.

Can't see anything wrong with it...
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2012-01-15 00:31:18 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:

But the medium turrets already have good tracking and less than half the DPS, so which do you think appears to benefit more from this, the large turrets or the medium? Even if medium turrets hit for wrecking every shot the large guns are still going to out perform them.



And that is a problem because ...?

Large Turrets cost more, are more skill intense and the ships have their drawbacks - probably that may make the Talos very powerful in its niche thanks to blasters good base tracking, a tracking bonus and a drone bay on top.

Fine - now Gallente have their Drake/Cane too...

It's not a problem at all. It's great. It means I can track frigs moving at 5k/sec with my large blasters and kill them in 1 shot.

I mean, unless YOU see a problem with that. I suppose I've spent the time training them and paid the isk for them so I'm entitled to 1 shot tacklers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2012-01-15 00:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
I ask you again.
What you're asking was never in question, so why are you asking?
Quote:
It means I can track frigs moving at 5k/sec with my large blasters and kill them in 1 shot.
…but funnily enough, it's not really your tracking that lets you do that.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2012-01-15 00:35:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
I ask you again.
What you're asking was never in question, so why are you asking?

Do you think that large blaster tracking would appear to benefit more from the sig bloom than medium due to them having poorer tracking to start with?
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2012-01-15 00:39:49 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:

That doesn't change anything about the fact that it tanks better than a Talos.

It certainly removes one of the reasons you would fly a cane to start with. If you want tank you would pick something else.
Name Family Name wrote:

The Hurricane is versatile and plainly the better ship for most purposes

No. There are no reasons to fly a cane now. It may be better than all the ships you listed but so is a t3. The cane has lost it's role to better ships.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2012-01-15 00:40:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…but funnily enough, it's not really your tracking that lets you do that.

Without tracking I wouldn't hit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2012-01-15 00:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…but funnily enough, it's not really your tracking that lets you do that.

Without tracking I wouldn't hit.

Actually, yes you would, if you could manipulate the other variables involved to your advantage. That is what the Talos lets you do, unlike, say, a Megathron or a Vindicator (well… they can try to, but they aren't nearly as adept at it as the Talos).
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2012-01-15 00:48:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…but funnily enough, it's not really your tracking that lets you do that.

Without tracking I wouldn't hit.

Actually, yes you would, if you could manipulate the other variables involved to your advantage. That is what the Talos lets you do, unlike, say, a Megathron or a Vindicator.

You have to very little manipulating due to it's high tracking.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2012-01-15 00:54:11 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
You have to very little manipulating due to it's high tracking.
Again, you need the same amount as you would in a Mega or a Vindi (and you're still shooting at a target that halves your effective tracking). The difference is that those two are quite limited in what they can do about it, whereas the Talos is not (or, well… they have their own set of tricks, but the tracking issue for them remains).
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2012-01-15 00:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
You have to very little manipulating due to it's high tracking.
Again, you need the same amount as you would in a Mega or a Vindi (and you're still shooting at a target that halves your effective tracking). The difference is that those two are quite limited in what they can do about it, whereas the Talos is not (or, well… they have their own set of tricks, but the tracking issue for them remains).

No you don't, and it's obvious now you're out of your depth here, having not flown it in combat. You're making assumptions here, and they are incorrect. I'm telling you right now that I click approach or fly away, turn on my guns and the target turns into a wreck.
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-01-15 01:02:10 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:

It certainly removes one of the reasons you would fly a cane to start with. If you want tank you would pick something else.
Name Family Name wrote:

The Hurricane is versatile and plainly the better ship for most purposes

No. There are no reasons to fly a cane now. It may be better than all the ships you listed but so is a t3. The cane has lost it's role to better ships.



A few of the reaons you fly a cane is because it's fast, dirt cheap, easy to skill, has a good combination of damage projection, speed, tank and the ability to neut supercaps dry when used in a swarm.

It's still better than any Tier1 BC and all Tier2 BCs except the Drake for certain purposes and a cane gang can still deal with pretty much anything or run away if it can't.

And saying the Cane outperforming almost every ship in its class was okay because T3's outperform them as well, I'm forced to conclude that you must be trolling.

Great - Gallente may have their FOTM ship for the first time in years.
If the Talos helps diminishing the plague Canes and Drakes currently are, I'm all for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2012-01-15 01:03:12 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
No you don't
Yes you do. You see, the Talos has the same high tracking as those two ships — any manipulation they have to do in order to hit a small target with tracking alone, the Talos has to do as well. The difference is that the Talos can do so, and they can't. Same tracking; same amount of manipulation needed; different capability of doing so.
Quote:
You're making assumptions here, and they are incorrect. I'm telling you right now that I click approach or fly away, turn on my guns and the target turns into a wreck.
So my assumption that you are manipulating the situation to make up for the lack of tracking is proven incorrect by you telling me that you are manipulating the situation to make up for the lack of tracking.

Good job there… Roll

Again, it's your ability to do this manipulation that helps you — not the tracking, or you would have considered the Megathron insanely overpowered considering what it can do compared to the Talos.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2012-01-15 01:10:58 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:

It certainly removes one of the reasons you would fly a cane to start with. If you want tank you would pick something else.
Name Family Name wrote:

The Hurricane is versatile and plainly the better ship for most purposes

No. There are no reasons to fly a cane now. It may be better than all the ships you listed but so is a t3. The cane has lost it's role to better ships.



*A few of the reaons you fly a cane is because it's fast
T3's are faster

*dirt cheap
t3's arent much more and to be honest if you can't afford a t3 you're doing EVE wrong

*easy to skill
Noobs fly them and noobs die in them until they can fly something better.

*has a good combination of damage projection, speed, tank
T3's have better damage projection and speed. EHP doesn't matter.

*and the ability to neut supercaps dry when used in a swarm.
Something a Curse or any number of BS do better.

*It's still better than any Tier1 BC and all Tier2 BCs except the Drake
So are T3's except T3's are better than canes in every way that matters

*for certain purposes and a cane gang can still deal with pretty much anything or run away if it can't.
Can't see many of them running now that they're slower than all the t3's

Your arguments would be OK if the Cane and the Talos were the only two ships in the game, but they are not. And there is always a better option than the cane when choosing a ship.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2012-01-15 01:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
No you don't
Yes you do. You see, the Talos has the same high tracking as those two ships — any manipulation they have to do in order to hit a small target with tracking alone, the Talos has to do as well. The difference is that the Talos can do so, and they can't. Same tracking; same amount of manipulation needed; different capability of doing so.
Quote:
You're making assumptions here, and they are incorrect. I'm telling you right now that I click approach or fly away, turn on my guns and the target turns into a wreck.
So my assumption that you are manipulating the situation to make up for the lack of tracking is proven incorrect by you telling me that you are manipulating the situation to make up for the lack of tracking.

Good job there… Roll

Again, it's your ability to do this manipulation that helps you — not the tracking, or you would have considered the Megathron insanely overpowered considering what it can do compared to the Talos.

So clicking approach or flying away is manipulating? Last time I checked, it was just flying your ship. I suppose there it is, your arguments are so far and away from actually playing the game that you call flying your ship 'manipulating'. You simply give too much weight to theoretical numbers and formulas and not on real results. The mega and vindi are the same as they were effected by the same changes to hybrids as the Talos. Different is the Talos is way more agile meaning less needing to flying your ship. Feel free to lyrically quote me for about 10 pages though. I know what I'm talking about and all you do is nit-pick an argument like the anally retentive turbo nerd you so obviously are. If you have any other comments to make about a talos' tracking please do it in the other thread, this one is about cane's role in the field being diminished due to the introduction of the tier 3 BC's.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-01-15 01:26:57 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
So clicking approach or flying away is manipulating?
Yes. It means you are not simply relying on your tracking, but are actively going after the thing that causes a problem for you: transversal. If you can manipulate it enough, tracking completely ceases to be a factor. You are manipulating the situation, not the stats.

You see, that's your problem: you think I'm talking theory here, when I am actually talking practice. In theory, the Talos doesn't have a spectacular tracking — it's on par with many other ships that use large guns (even less so, in fact, due to fitting trade-offs and constraints). In practice, it can manipulate the situation in a number of ways to make this ho-hum tracking work quite nicely, and this is what sets it apart from those other large hybrid ships.
Quote:
I know what I'm talking about
Maybe. The problem is that you are ruining any argument you have based on that knowledge by trying to prop them up with blatantly false claims (mostly about theory).
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-01-15 01:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Name Family Name
I think you're mixing up Tier 3 with T3.

Canes will still be used - you see - all your argumets are referring to comparisons with one trick ponies:

- EHP does matter depending on the gang fielded - if you're in a throwaway gank-fleet, probably not, if you have a few scimitars with you it does, depending on what you're up against.

- The Talos may have better damage projection than a Cane at low ranges and can use a set of small drones to GTFO the others have far more tracking issues and don't have drones.

- If you think the Curse is that great, why don't you see Curse blobs? you don't find enough pilots fielding them, get less fights and are far more limited in what you can engage and what not.

- BS lack mobility - and I'd rather hesitate to engage a Cane gang than a Tier3 Gang when fielding a BS gang (depends on fits and gang composition of course).

Again - the Canes strength is the overall package - I can take out a Cane gang and encounter a frig gang, I can deal with it - I encounter another BC gang I can deal with it - I encounter SCs I can deal with them - if I can't, I can still run...

Having half your pilots switch to Curses mid warp to a tackled SCs isn't really an option if you want to neut it dry and are in a Talos gang 40 jumps away from your alliances base of operations under most circumstances.

Your assumptions would be ok if the Talos and Cane were the only two ships in the game, but they are not.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2012-01-15 01:33:44 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
I think you're mixing up Tier 3 with T3.

Canes will still be used - you see - all your argumets are referring to comparisons with one trick ponies:

- EHP does matter depending on the gang fielded - if you're in a throwaway gank-fleet, probably not, if you have a few scimitars with you it does, depending on what you're up against.

- The Talos may have better damage projection than a Cane at low ranges and can use a set of small drones to GTFO the others have far more tracking issues and don't have drones.

- If you think the Curse is that great, why don't you see Curse blobs? you don't find enough pilots fielding them, get less fights and are far more limited in what you can engage and what not.

- BS lack mobility - and I'd rather hesitate to engage a Cane gang than a Tier3 Gang when fielding a BS gang (depends on fits and gang composition of course).

Again - the Canes strength is the overall package - I can take out a Cane gang and encounter a frig gang, I can deal with it - I encounter another BC gang I can deal with it - I encounter SCs I can neut them.

Having half your pilots switch to Curses mid warp to a tackled SCs isn't really an option if you want to neut it dry and are in a Talos gang 40 jumps away from your alliances base of operations under most circumstances.

Your assumptions would be ok if the Talos and Cane were the only two ships in the game, but they are not.

No doubt the cane will still be used, easy pickings for anyone in a tier 3 (i'm not mixing anything up).
- EHP doesn't matter.
- Talos (and the Oracle, and the Naga) has better damage projection over all ranges
- Duh, specific role to neut, does it better than a cane. Stupid question
- BS have that EHP you love and can neut SC's more effectively
- Cane's strength is that it's weaker and cheaper? I think we've come to an agreement
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2012-01-15 01:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Name Family Name
Cyzlaki wrote:
No doubt the cane will still be used, easy pickings for anyone in a tier 3 (i'm not mixing anything up).
- EHP doesn't matter.


It does in a certain alpha/logistics environment - gives logis more time to start repping effectively - even more so if triage carriers come into play.

Quote:
- Talos (and the Oracle, and the Naga) has better damage projection over all ranges



No they don't - because especially the Oracle and Naga will run into severe tracking problems up close - just as artillery-fit Tornados would.

Quote:
- Duh, specific role to neut, does it better than a cane. Stupid question


I wasn't asking a question, I explained why the Cane is still a damn fine ship and wont be replaced with the Talos (or curses).

Quote:
- BS have that EHP you love and can neut SC's more effectively


Cyzlaki wrote:

- EHP doesn't matter.


Huh? And you missed the point of them lacking mobility.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2012-01-15 01:43:34 UTC
Again, arguing over a Cane's tank is stupid. If you want tank you fly something else. Cane's are the first to die in a fleet with logi's as it is. Your argument is very weak and shows just how useless the cane has become
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-01-15 01:45:17 UTC
I find it funny that the Brick Squad guy is arguing about a small gang environment while the Amarr FW guy is arguing about massive fleet battles with supercaps and triage carriers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.