Assembly Hall

And herein lies the problem.


Fear of losing prevents them from bringing an asset that would actually amount to a dead titan, and at the same time they tell their own members lies to hide their cowardice.

Each titan can only DD once every 10 minutes, and turrent guns aren't any more or less damaging really than sieged dread guns are. So they wouldn't lose 20% of their fleet, unless they jumped in 30 dreads against 30 titans, the outcome would actually be very bad for the titan itself.


The base level problem is that the decision makers for most alliances are literally cowards, and the idea of losing internet space ships bothers them.

Get over that, and you'll start to see Titans dying to alliances besides mine.

My alliance alone has over 100 titans in it, how would you sort this out, we just suddenly ended up with 100 mobile stations?

And this is totally acceptable, only the sub cap guys don't want this, they want to kill the supers with absolute immunity from them.


I hope CCP read this, because this is exactly how it should ideally flow.

Grath can correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Titan/Superkills kills due to Pandemic Legion in the last year has not been to straight up super fights, but catching them while moving, ratting or doing other dumb things.

You need to understand that when you are fighting anything, unless completely outnumbered that you are going to have casualties. Unfortunately the stakes are so high for supers it is always going to be really hard to know what you can handle and what will essentially destroy your alliance. The very presence of supers logging in will send most alliances running.

My alliance has been on the short end of the stick in the last few weeks, being blocked by the Raiden. Titan blob in their time zone. From a enemy with many times our numbers of Titans. (Grath probably has accurate numbers :psyduck:), which isn't really surprising. This is why Eve has diplomacy and a unironic tendency to gang up on giant empires. (the fall of the NC for example). However it would also be fair to say that just over a year ago, my Alliance was bumbling around in lowsec, with a membership who were literally little more then Rifters. Today we are essentially the Lords of Fountain which has been very good to us. We still have obligations to our allies, and need them so much but it hasn't prevented us having space. In fact most sov in Eve is owned by alliances like mine, and even if we don't suckle on tech like the super powers it hasn't exactly stopped us.

A Titan can withstand massive quantities of DDs, it's barely a scratch for them. It is a big problem for normal capitals however. But you should be fielding your own supers if you are trying to fight a field of supers. If you lose a bunch of dreads and carriers but kill a single Titan, you are still going to be ahead.

What I would like to see would be a lot more granularity to capitals. Currently you have DPS in Dreads, Logi in carriers and DPS in Supercaps and Titans. Which if you compare to subcaps, is pathetic. Eve at it's most basic mechanics simply encourages blobbing and large decisive battles. It essentially comes down to who has the correctly tanked fleet comp, with the correctly set up bonuses and the correct numbers. As well as enough logistics to keep them alive and enough support to keep them tackled and your own capitals clear. The NC lost one of these battles, losing 7 Titans and a couple of supercaps to manage to kill 2 Titans and a couple of supers. It'd be fair to say that super fits don't vary much outside of some very simply fitting decisions and the confidence of the alliance fielding them.

I would personally love to see things like Capital EWAR, Capital tackle and etc. Of course there aren't enough large fights for this to be a big issue in that while the mechanics for all of them are the same, they are insanely rare. Fielding a Titan is straight up too much risk unless you can be confident that noone will mess with you.

I wouldn't overgeneralize this too much.

"...only the sub cap guys don't want this..."

That's a logical fallacy, and I personally believe that many would be against this. There are some issues about it though. dreads don't have enough EHP to stand up to supercarriers.

Taking subcaps out of the equation, a fleet of 5 Titans and 5 supercarriers can easily hold against 20 dreads with 10 support. One might think, hey that's fine it's the difference between being a SUPER capital and a regular capital. Well at this point you lose option #1 that you agree to.

Remove RR capibility from supercarriers, add in infinipoint. Diversify capital fittings, allow capital EWAR to affect supers. The T2 siege and Triage are a great start.

Just as you desire to see a supercapital engagement, there are thousands of capital pilots looking to dust off thier dreads, to fit their carriers for something other than hauling rigged ships.


EDIT:

What I am trying to say is that when you have 3 classes of ships:

subcapital
capital
supercapital


What is the accepted force multiplier?

No, not really, I only lose it if you refuse to face the loss of some of your subcaps, but your goal in the dreads shouldn't ever be a clean kill, because the dreads are insurable, the supers aren't.


But your example is bad, its suicide, why would you expect to engage 10 supers with 30 lesser ships, would you engage 10 cruisers with 30 frigates?

I doubt it, because it would be suicide.


Now, if you had I had 5 titans and 5 supers, and I had 30 dreads and 10 support, yes, I would go for that. My goal, is to simply kill a super, my dreads, are all insured, so I'm going to bridge in or jump in next to what I think I'm most likely to kill, bubble it, siege green, and ride it till the wheels fall off, and yes, on jump in I'm going to lose 5 dreads.

I'll probably lose a 6th dread in about 1 minute, a 7th a minute after that to turrent titans, assuming i haven't bumped them all out of range on jump in, but in that one minute, I'm going to put enough hurt on a super to kill it, and then start moving to another, by the end, the supers would need to leave the field, but they'd be short one, maybe 2 supers, and the next time their FC calls a form up, with morale lower, they're probably not going to get as many members.

What you want is a bloodless victory, you won't ever get that, nor should you, a fight should leave scars.


EDIT: Looking at the numbers, 20 dreads, on jump in, losing 5 to the titans, and after 1 minute the first to the supers, you'd still actually easily kill a Nyx, so I might actually try that jihad move to kill one.

For a clean triple post, I guess supers/titans are only a problem if losses are unacceptable, and your ability to fight them is limited to how aggressive you're willing to be about killing/hunting them during ops.

If you want to kill them, you absolutely can, but you will absolutely get a bloody nose while knocking them down, and to me thats how things should be.


PL's current fondest wish is a huge supercap brawl, as we've demonstrated over and over again by Shamis constantly jumping us into meat grinders in our supers. We save all our tech money for the eventual fight we know is coming where we'll suffer some pretty severe losses.

We want this fight, like, the losses and all, and eventually we'll get it (likely at the end of a russian gun barrel since they literally have no fear), but we've planned this fight with the idea that we'll suffer catastrophic losses during the fight, this is how you should always plan things, plan for the worst, work for the best.

I'm at work so I can't (and **** math anyway) do the figuring on this, but would 20 dreads even have enough DPS to not only kill a supercarrier, but be able to overcome the tank of 4 CRARs on the primary target? (15 if you take out the DD ones, then at least 2 dreads per minute due to titan guns and FBs.)

Yea, pretty easy, a sieged moros can currently do about 11kdps, so, you would decimate a Nyx with that much DPS, cap reps be damned.

I don't understand this fear of losing ships. Especially capitals. They are T1 ships...insure them. Hell I just barely got into Dreads...haven't even flown mine yet but I can't wait to take it out and sooner or later lose it. I will keep it insured even if it takes me 2 years to lose it...why? Because with that insurance I can pretty much turn around and buy another.

I lost my first carrier a month ago in a WH engagement...it was ******* awesome!

It was also uninsured...did I cry? Hell no...I am in WH space...ill make that money for another in no time.

Point is...people shouldn't be afraid to lose ships. This is why I respect Pandemic Legion for what they are. They go full boar, **** you in the face with their fleets and aren't afraid to risk losing ships to win the fight. If everybody fought like this EvE would be a better place.