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Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the blob 1000 VS 1 AKA The Alpha Problem.

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-01-12 20:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Avid Bumhumper wrote:
Give everyone a Doomsday, they who select the most targets and pull the trigger first wins.... Problem solved. Cool


/joke

implement hideous mechanic .. which will randomly set self-destruction and will be carry off in 5 sec. dependable on number of people in local ...
Holy **** Jita Big smile

/joke

**** i could have sniped both pages.. but i am bad at it.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-01-12 20:58:18 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Guys lets punish people for having friends and being organised.


This is generally true for everything in life.
ASadOldGit
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-01-12 20:58:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
^ fixing that problem would be moving in the right way, but it in no way solves all of the problems of null combat

you end up with 2 types of alpha fleets long range and med range.


so long as the best solution in large fights stays EVERYONE SHOOT X its still broken.



i welcome the return of sniper fleets


True, but wouldn't it be nice to have Eagle be FOTM for once? Blink

We do indeed need to have a way to discourage blobs, or at least to discourage "primary 1-2-3" fighting, but I have not seen any ideas that are not broken by design, or easily exploited (like the stacking penalty for targeting thing).

Ok, so if changing core mechanics or having fancy modules doesn't really solve the problem (if it is one, as some consider it valid gameplay), would just having better FC tools enable alternative gameplay, without forcing it? Things such as letting an FC select 10 targets to spread the fire around a little more efficiently (perhaps with a randomise option so people don't just target the first one on the list)? Basically, keep the sandboxxy-ness - give them the tools, and see what they do with it?

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#124 - 2012-01-12 21:05:04 UTC
ASadOldGit wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
^ fixing that problem would be moving in the right way, but it in no way solves all of the problems of null combat

you end up with 2 types of alpha fleets long range and med range.


so long as the best solution in large fights stays EVERYONE SHOOT X its still broken.



i welcome the return of sniper fleets


True, but wouldn't it be nice to have Eagle be FOTM for once? Blink

We do indeed need to have a way to discourage blobs, or at least to discourage "primary 1-2-3" fighting, but I have not seen any ideas that are not broken by design, or easily exploited (like the stacking penalty for targeting thing).

Ok, so if changing core mechanics or having fancy modules doesn't really solve the problem (if it is one, as some consider it valid gameplay), would just having better FC tools enable alternative gameplay, without forcing it? Things such as letting an FC select 10 targets to spread the fire around a little more efficiently (perhaps with a randomise option so people don't just target the first one on the list)? Basically, keep the sandboxxy-ness - give them the tools, and see what they do with it?


Nope, because out-of-game comms are mostly used for target calling anyway, and FCs focus fire in order to be absolutely sure to get the target. Some better FC tools would be nice (like hotkeys for broadcasting targets) but most importantly FCs need an incentive to shoot more than one person at once, whether that's provided by mechanics, or something else.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2012-01-12 21:10:48 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:


+1 OP for content, though your delivery is costing you some support I think.




OP maybe loud an annoying but he has a point.

Having a escalating time to lock when more people do it might be an interesting choice, I personally have always like the idea of ships taking damage from exploding ships to reducing blobbing and somehow incorporating that into fleet formations etc.

Fleer formation is one of the things that CCP has been talking about for years but can't get of the ground. A rework of the locking/damage system might be a good start to institute it.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-01-12 21:11:44 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
One question: Why do you think "alpha" is being used?


It has already been said. To get on the killmail.

Nope. To burn through the HP before logis kick in and save the guy.

Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Altho i would change allow to demand .. just to be on spot..
Something what Taiwanistan said on the other thread... simultaneous attack on three spots .. to weaken an sovereignty then the "HQ" or something like that..

I don't think we'll want to talk about having some sort of "HQ" or something, I'd want the SOV system to be simpler, not filled with more rules. Personally I'd like to see if it could work with a system that allowed for systems along the front line to be lost and retaken daily so we'd have a sort of tug of war thing going. This'll probably prove to be too lenient, but the minimum that needs to be done with the SOV system is to make sure it's not as easy for the defender as the current system is, where they only have to win a single fight to reset all progress the aggressor has gained,w hich means they keep making sure they have number superiority, which means more people, more supers, etc etc etc etc etc, until we have 3000+ in a system and CCP are bitching at us for stuffing too many people in to one system.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#127 - 2012-01-12 21:14:47 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
[...] until we have 3000+ in a system and CCP are bitching at us for stuffing too many people in to one system.


Personal experience best experience amirite?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-01-12 21:17:40 UTC
I wasn't actually in that fight, us ~evil goonies~ weren't there to save the NC, remember?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
ASadOldGit
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-01-12 22:50:31 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
ASadOldGit wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
[quote=Mirima Thurander][...snip...]
We do indeed need to have a way to discourage blobs, or at least to discourage "primary 1-2-3" fighting, but I have not seen any ideas that are not broken by design, or easily exploited (like the stacking penalty for targeting thing).

Ok, so if changing core mechanics or having fancy modules doesn't really solve the problem (if it is one, as some consider it valid gameplay), would just having better FC tools enable alternative gameplay, without forcing it? Things such as letting an FC select 10 targets to spread the fire around a little more efficiently (perhaps with a randomise option so people don't just target the first one on the list)? Basically, keep the sandboxxy-ness - give them the tools, and see what they do with it?


Nope, because out-of-game comms are mostly used for target calling anyway, and FCs focus fire in order to be absolutely sure to get the target. Some better FC tools would be nice (like hotkeys for broadcasting targets) but most importantly FCs need an incentive to shoot more than one person at once, whether that's provided by mechanics, or something else.

Ok, so did out-of-game comms (or EVE-Voice) become better because the in-game tools were crap, or will voice always be better regardless of the tools available?

What about a hierarchical fleet window integrated with voice (don't know if you can do that with external tools such as TeamSpeak) where the FC clicks on a level (such as all fleet members, just wing commanders, just an individual wing, etc) and voice-comms are then filtered to just that selection, so people aren't swamped with commands that aren't relevant to them?
Also, from the other end, individual wings could have open comms relevant to their wing without swamping the rest of the fleet.

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#130 - 2012-01-12 23:03:21 UTC
ASadOldGit wrote:

Ok, so did out-of-game comms (or EVE-Voice) become better because the in-game tools were crap, or will voice always be better regardless of the tools available?


Out-of-game tools will always be better, because of being able to chat out of game (e.g. when Eve crashes), better support, better codecs, etc.

ASadOldGit wrote:

What about a hierarchical fleet window integrated with voice (don't know if you can do that with external tools such as TeamSpeak) where the FC clicks on a level (such as all fleet members, just wing commanders, just an individual wing, etc) and voice-comms are then filtered to just that selection, so people aren't swamped with commands that aren't relevant to them?
Also, from the other end, individual wings could have open comms relevant to their wing without swamping the rest of the fleet.


I think Eve Voice does this right now, but it's incredibly buggy and hard to use. Usually what happens currently is everyone would be on a channel in out-of-voice comms, with the FC having priority speech over everyone else (when he speaks, everyone else is muted). Some comm programs do support "tiered" organization, but in general it's a pain to set up, and there is no incentive to go through all of that if you need most of the fleet to alpha one person down anyway.

Mechanics or numbers need to change to make using tiered commands useful.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-01-12 23:27:19 UTC
As I see it this game is about unfettered tactics and what you’re seeing is the evolutionary process of combat in EVE at work.
The 1000 man alpha blob is not exclusive to EVE and in fact it has many R/L equivalents. The reason concentration of fire is a valid tactic is because it works. It’s not any different for the blob then it is for two guys running missions and coordinating their gun fire and their drone aggro on the same targets to kill them faster.

I’ll try not to give you a wall of text but there are some historical actions that I think pertain to this issue directly. Look no further than Admiral Horatio Nelson to see concentration of fire in practice. I’ll give you two examples.

The Battle of the Nile 1798: Nelson attacks an anchored French fleet at Aboukir Bay and slips part his fleet behind the anchored French ships and the other part he drives in front of the French basically advancing south and double teaming every French ship on the way while the remaining anchored French ships sat their waiting to die.

The Battle of Trafalgar 1805: Nelson attacks a French/Spanish fleet at sea arranging his fleet into two squads and using those squads to punch through the French/Spanish line and in doing that he isolates the upwind Van from the Center and Rear allowing him to concentrate fire on 2/3 of the French/Spanish fleet while leaving the Van unmolested, out of the fight and unable to respond.

What you would propose in this thread is to swing the nerf bat and eliminate or hinder the ability of a fleet to concentrate its fire for no logical reason because you think it’s an unfair advantage. I would argue that what needs to be done is some analysis of the problem of the 1000 man alpha blob in order to counter it with new tactics. There are disadvantages to the 1000 man alpha blob, flexibility and the ability to react quickly being two that spring to mind immediately. In my opinion FCs need to learn how to maneuver their fleets as well as they direct their fire. I also think that the answer to the 1000 man alpha blob lies in the use of multiple small highly coordinated and maneuverable fleets to take full advantage of the ‘blob’ part of the 1000 man alpha blob.
Remember, in War, if it’s a fair fight, you’re doing it wrong.
Just my .02
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
ASadOldGit
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-01-12 23:41:45 UTC
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:
...

What you would propose in this thread is to swing the nerf bat and eliminate or hinder the ability of a fleet to concentrate its fire for no logical reason because you think it’s an unfair advantage. I would argue that what needs to be done is some analysis of the problem of the 1000 man alpha blob in order to counter it with new tactics. There are disadvantages to the 1000 man alpha blob, flexibility and the ability to react quickly being two that spring to mind immediately. In my opinion FCs need to learn how to maneuver their fleets as well as they direct their fire. I also think that the answer to the 1000 man alpha blob lies in the use of multiple small highly coordinated and maneuverable fleets to take full advantage of the ‘blob’ part of the 1000 man alpha blob.
Remember, in War, if it’s a fair fight, you’re doing it wrong.
Just my .02

I agree with this, but the trouble is, this basically requires FCs to be taught about tactics, requiring some dedication that the average player probably doesn't want to deal with. Hence the shortage of good FCs.

I wonder what would happen to this game if 50% of the FCs went on holiday, or played Skyrim, for a month... Smile

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Hecatonis
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2012-01-12 23:53:42 UTC
any FC is calling down fire from 1000 ships onto one should be primaried themselves and fired from their job as FC. that is only slightly better then a free for all shoot out.

a good fleet will split their fire into smaller groups that will take out a ship in one to three shots. these fire groups should be made up ships with similar rates of fire and locking speed because if they are not then you will run into situations where some people are just not firing and this is a loss in damage.

it has been a long time since i have been part of a big fleet battle, i retired from nulsec when i made this toon, so i cant comment on the current situation, but i really hope that the large alliances havent resorted to such lazy tactics.

many modern military tactics work very well in eve, they just are not used used that much, or i havent seen them used, but if FCs and alliance officials put some through into what they are doing they would do a lot better on the battle field.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#134 - 2012-01-13 00:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
Hecatonis wrote:
any FC is calling down fire from 1000 ships onto one should be primaried themselves and fired from their job as FC. that is only slightly better then a free for all shoot out.

a good fleet will split their fire into smaller groups that will take out a ship in one to three shots. these fire groups should be made up ships with similar rates of fire and locking speed because if they are not then you will run into situations where some people are just not firing and this is a loss in damage.

it has been a long time since i have been part of a big fleet battle, i retired from nulsec when i made this toon, so i cant comment on the current situation, but i really hope that the large alliances havent resorted to such lazy tactics.

many modern military tactics work very well in eve, they just are not used used that much, or i havent seen them used, but if FCs and alliance officials put some through into what they are doing they would do a lot better on the battle field.


this

a smart FC would be using wings or even individual smaller fleets who can focus plenty of alpha on multiple primaries while still retaining superior mobility


(to all)
heh, when was the last time you saw someone deploy a wing of frigs in a blob fight just to kill drones?
we have the tools, you can't blame the game because people don't bother to use them correctly
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-01-13 01:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
ASadOldGit wrote:
IGNATIUS HOOD wrote:
...

What you would propose in this thread is to swing the nerf bat and eliminate or hinder the ability of a fleet to concentrate its fire for no logical reason because you think it’s an unfair advantage. I would argue that what needs to be done is some analysis of the problem of the 1000 man alpha blob in order to counter it with new tactics. There are disadvantages to the 1000 man alpha blob, flexibility and the ability to react quickly being two that spring to mind immediately. In my opinion FCs need to learn how to maneuver their fleets as well as they direct their fire. I also think that the answer to the 1000 man alpha blob lies in the use of multiple small highly coordinated and maneuverable fleets to take full advantage of the ‘blob’ part of the 1000 man alpha blob.
Remember, in War, if it’s a fair fight, you’re doing it wrong.
Just my .02

I agree with this, but the trouble is, this basically requires FCs to be taught about tactics, requiring some dedication that the average player probably doesn't want to deal with. Hence the shortage of good FCs.

I wonder what would happen to this game if 50% of the FCs went on holiday, or played Skyrim, for a month... Smile


the other one will do it for both sides Big smile
seany1212
M Y S T
#136 - 2012-01-13 02:23:13 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Hecatonis wrote:
any FC is calling down fire from 1000 ships onto one should be primaried themselves and fired from their job as FC. that is only slightly better then a free for all shoot out.

a good fleet will split their fire into smaller groups that will take out a ship in one to three shots. these fire groups should be made up ships with similar rates of fire and locking speed because if they are not then you will run into situations where some people are just not firing and this is a loss in damage.

it has been a long time since i have been part of a big fleet battle, i retired from nulsec when i made this toon, so i cant comment on the current situation, but i really hope that the large alliances havent resorted to such lazy tactics.

many modern military tactics work very well in eve, they just are not used used that much, or i havent seen them used, but if FCs and alliance officials put some through into what they are doing they would do a lot better on the battle field.


this

a smart FC would be using wings or even individual smaller fleets who can focus plenty of alpha on multiple primaries while still retaining superior mobility


This happens, the guys in 0ccupational hazzard when i flew with them had this down to a fine art, they could take out a 15 man gang and take on 100 because they were able to play the field, stay mobile, tactically take down the 100 man gangs that only planned to "click and shoot".

The problem is that it happens but it doesnt happen enough, it comes down to lazy tactics in 1000 man blobs, it's point and shoot for the pvp illiterate and the problem is that due to the high numbers it works and is hard to come up with any counter other than more high numbered blobs Cry
Mirima Thurander
#137 - 2012-01-13 02:56:53 UTC
I would like to ask everyone to step away from using blob as a term in this thread, im fine with large fleets if we could have 10000 VS 10000 man fleets it would be fine with me.




The problem is that at a large scale EvE combat breaks down and all you can do is EVERYONE SHOOT AT X THEN SHOOT AT Y,
that's the problem in EvEs large scale fights right now.(besides the horrible SOV grinds)

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-01-13 05:56:49 UTC
You'll find that's how all EVE combat is, large scale or not. If you take a 3v3 fight, if all 3 concentrate on burning down the other fleet 1 by 1, while the other fleet is shooting at their own targets, the fleet taking down the other guys 1 by 1 will win because they reduce the incoming DPS by 33% way before the other fleet has taken down anyone. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the fleet taking down the other fleet 1 by 1 were to survive without a loss. Add logistics to the picture, and this gets even worse.

The only way you can realistically get "better combat" in EVE, is if they reworked the entire flight mechanics to be more like X-Wing etc. Good luck with that. Apart from that, the only thing you can hope for is that CCP rework things like the SOV mechanics so it's more natural to spread out your forces rather than throw up to 3k people into the same system.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hecatonis
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-01-13 07:30:14 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
You'll find that's how all EVE combat is, large scale or not. If you take a 3v3 fight, if all 3 concentrate on burning down the other fleet 1 by 1, while the other fleet is shooting at their own targets, the fleet taking down the other guys 1 by 1 will win because they reduce the incoming DPS by 33% way before the other fleet has taken down anyone. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the fleet taking down the other fleet 1 by 1 were to survive without a loss. Add logistics to the picture, and this gets even worse.

The only way you can realistically get "better combat" in EVE, is if they reworked the entire flight mechanics to be more like X-Wing etc. Good luck with that. Apart from that, the only thing you can hope for is that CCP rework things like the SOV mechanics so it's more natural to spread out your forces rather than throw up to 3k people into the same system.


there is a major difference between a 3v3 and a 500v500 and a 1000v1000. focus fire in smaller engagements are a perfect usable tactic and is a very efficient why of passing out damage. but using such a tactic after the point were alpha = death is the mark of a very bad FC. if that is how all EVE combat is dont then i have to ask what has happened to nulsec FC

in regards to the OP statement i dont think the devs really need to do anything, this is a player created problem they should be using better tactics instead of being lazy
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-01-13 07:40:08 UTC
Focus firing really should be changed so it is not the only viable tactic for viable fleet fights.

Whether that's a logistics nerf in addition to restricted targeting, a form of space 'terrain' to stop ships sitting in huge blobs where every ship can readily fire at every other ship, fortress shield thing to defend your fleet or split another, or any other number of crazy schemes, fleet combat needs to have strategic depth similar to an RTS, and less like whack-a-mole.