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Submarine sim ?
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Morganta
The Greater Goon
#21 - 2012-01-11 15:32:15 UTC
because it is

I remember the first time I undocked in beta, as the screen went black and the loading bar did its thing, my mind conjured up the sounds of sloshing water as my ship was carefully deposited into space

mind you, this is before I even saw or experienced space in eve
I still get that sense when I undock, just not as much now

and playing in a cloaky boat totally makes it like subsims

but then again I get that feeling when I play a spy in TF2

ping....ping....ping.....BACKSTAB!
Misina Arlath
Darkfall Helix
#22 - 2012-01-11 15:52:35 UTC
A plane flies.
An animal walks, or runs.
Horses gallop!
A ship sails.
A car drives.
You ride a horse, or a bicycle, or another person.

But...

What does a submarine do?

Submerge? But they emerge to? Drive?

:(
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#23 - 2012-01-11 15:55:18 UTC
A submarine is underway Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Roc Wieler
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-01-11 15:56:31 UTC
And of course, if we went with an accurate physics model, we wouldn't see lasers, there would be no explosions in space, there would be no sound, not that EVE has sound anyway, but you get the point.

Never start a fight you can win.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#25 - 2012-01-11 15:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
Misina Arlath wrote:
A plane flies.
An animal walks, or runs.
Horses gallop!
A ship sails.
A car drives.
You ride a horse, or a bicycle, or another person.

But...

What does a submarine do?

Submerge? But they emerge to? Drive?

:(


a submarine sails on the surface and flies while submerged

there is little difference between a submerged sub, and a pusher type of aircraft flying in the air
and both are pretty close to a spacecraft aside from the physics of space
the sub maintains level flight with neutral buoyancy and climbs and dives with wing control
a plane relies on lift for level flight and climbs and dives with wing control

so yeah, it should feel sort of like a subsim with a 360 degree view and infinite LOS
Zleon Leigh
#26 - 2012-01-11 16:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zleon Leigh
You can play the game without ever seeing anything other than the UI. One of the best PvP players I know only has a peep hole in his layout of overview, comms, watchlist, locked targts (etc etc etc) dialogs. All his actions are done in the UI space, not the graphics space.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#27 - 2012-01-11 16:28:11 UTC
They explained the sound thing already, its piped in so we don't go mad.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#28 - 2012-01-11 17:16:42 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
They explained the sound thing already, its piped in so we don't go mad.


And yet sometimes the sound itself is enough to drive us mad...

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#29 - 2012-01-11 17:32:59 UTC
The mechanics of the game itself mirror submarine simulation games (Silent Hunter III or 688i) more than they do space flight simulations (X series, Freelancer, or Elite). Sitting with your nose to the D-scan, local, and overview is a lot more like monitoring a passive sonar system than any kind of interactive radar system from the space flight sims. You don't directly control your ships, you issue it orders. You don't aim your weapons, you issue them orders.

I personally love sub sims, so this is fine with me, but I can see where people would be put off when you refer to it as a submarine sim.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#30 - 2012-01-11 17:37:59 UTC
I thought this thread was going to be about a new submarine game LEFT DISSAPPOINTED
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-01-11 17:40:47 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
You can play the game without ever seeing anything other than the UI. One of the best PvP players I know only has a peep hole in his layout of overview, comms, watchlist, locked targts (etc etc etc) dialogs. All his actions are done in the UI space, not the graphics space.


He obviously doesn't use the d-scanner actively then, or any scanner for that matter.

I has all the eve inactivity
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#32 - 2012-01-11 17:49:58 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Ok lets assume I have undocked and flown a ship. Cool

What about inflight physics is 'submarine' like ? could someone expand on the concept for me please?



In space there is almost zero friction so a ship would effectively never slow down once it has accelerated, unless a force is applied to do so. There is no realistic upper maximum velocity in space (barring teh speed of light), keep applying relative force and an object in space keeps accelerating. Objects in space dont self level to any plane when stopped.

Eve physics are not newtonian physics for space.



Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#33 - 2012-01-11 18:02:49 UTC
Winters Chill wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Of course, full Newtonian physics would be a bit of a pain to work with. Let alone if you bring relativity into play.

you are so wrong...


No he's not.

So you think it would be easy, to simulate 7000+ solar systems ...

topic was submarines, speak: eve's flight model. not a particle simulation at that granularity.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
with the simulated gravity of every said object influencing every ship floating in space along with orbits/newtonian mechanics for ships, and player owned installations?

its not a simulation, its still a game. You don't have to do n-body interaction to put a semi-realistic flight model into a game.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#34 - 2012-01-11 18:09:49 UTC
ok the whole empty no friction talk is sad, your slowing its not space its called thrusters, your ship dose that not the magic "eve space gravy"

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-01-11 18:14:26 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
They explained the sound thing already, its piped in so we don't go mad.

Ah, that's where the sound comes from. So some part of our ships' CPUs are dedicated to simulating appropriate swooshy, zappy and kablooey noises for us. Brilliant! No joke, makes sense that some noises would be a help to a space pilot. Humans expect noise when physical events happen.

(I guess that also means that each accel gate has a theme song? That your ship's CPU plays to get you in the mood for some battle? Seems like it-- accel gate hijacks my jukebox and dumps my personal playlist every time I activate one!) Blink
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-01-11 18:14:44 UTC
I will make an alt called Marko Ramius and I'll speak on Eve voice with Scottish accented Russian.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-01-11 18:26:48 UTC
ALLAARRRMMM!!!
Mirajane Cromwell
#38 - 2012-01-11 19:20:57 UTC
Winters Chill wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Of course, full Newtonian physics would be a bit of a pain to work with. Let alone if you bring relativity into play.

you are so wrong...


No he's not.

So you think it would be easy, to simulate 7000+ solar systems with orbiting bodies all being tracked by the server, with the simulated gravity of every said object influencing every ship floating in space along with orbits/newtonian mechanics for ships, and player owned installations? So much could go wrong with this, this game would be unplayable and it would be a bugger to budget cpu cycles for as you would add too many new calculations to simulate a newtonian world.

tl;dr: Get out of town.

Ever heard of Frontier: First Encounters (also known as Elite 3)? It had newtonian physics for all star systems and that game simulated whole milky way galaxy, ie. about 2 billion star systems and player could visit any of them - in star systems the planets orbited star, moons orbited planets and mass and gravity was calculated for ships. It was pretty amazing for a game released in the 90's and if I remember right, the whole game was in one 1.44Mb disk. If a game that old could do this on those old computers, certainly today's servers are capable of it. Besides, planets, moons, stations etc. don't move in Eve so the simulation would have to apply only ships.

Anyway, while the newtonian physics was cool in FFE, the combat was quite the opposite - ships flying at speeds of 0.5c first trying to match the speeds and then trying to hit each others during the fractions of second when you pass the enemy was not fun. Most of the time you missed. Going past the enemy 10 000 km/s, firing guns, turning around, accelerating towards new vector that takes you bit closer and at bit slower speed on next pass and hope you hit this time - that's the combat like with newtonian physics if there's no limits on acceleration.

If you set up a limit to acceleration, then you get a combat like in I-War games (Independence War I and II) - f.ex. you could let the ship fly to one direction and then roll ship 180 degrees and shoot the bad guy who was following you (turrets in those games didn't rotate like in Eve, you rotated the whole ship). That game also had pretty cool "warping" engine. See an example video.

Combat in newtonian physics would be more difficult than with the current submarine simulation.
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-01-11 19:47:03 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

Well .. how you accelerate and how you de-accelerate ..
You switch on the thrusters and move .. you switch them off you slowing down.


Just expanding on that. There is so little friction in space that the deceleration would not be noticeable. Also turning shouldn't need to take so long, simply just spin the ship then fire thrusters in the opposite direction to stop.

.... or all ships could just be spheres that move in any direction without turning and fire in all directions. P

Jumpgate (the old one now called "Jumpgate Classic") is exactly like this. Turn off thrusters and your ship continues going in a straight line. Meanwhile you can be rotating it like a ball turret without affecting your line of travel. There literally isn't any 'up' or 'down' in that game. Every time you rotate your ship a little, your 'up' (i.e. the direction toward the top of your cabin) is pointing to a different part of space.
Adonlude
Akavhi Guard
Fraternity.
#40 - 2012-01-11 23:35:09 UTC
Arethanerielle Xhiril wrote:
so, imagine, two ships approaching each other with thousands of kilometers per second: any projectile fired on each other would result in an absolute brutal-*******-overkill due to the absurd amounts of kinetic energy released. Thus, we wouldn't have or lovely drawn out slugfests we like so much.

So yeah, underwater naval warfare it is.


In that scenerio Amarr weapons would suck since lasers always move at the speed of light no matter how fast the source is moving.

Its funny that possibly the very first space ship video game, Asteriods, got the physics right and EvE did not.