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RMT and Null Sec Alliances
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Prince Kobol
#1 - 2012-01-11 11:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Over past few weeks I have noticed more and more people accusing null sec alliances of being in Involved in RMT Operations.

Now I am not part of any null sec alliances, I have no affiliation to anybody expect my own Corp and Alliance.

In several posts where somebody has accused an alliance being involved in RMT I have asked for evidence, some thing that backs up their claims and as of yet nobody has shown me any, if fact most of times they simply ignore the request.

Can somebody show me some sort of evidence that shows an alliance or corporation, whether they be in high / low or null that is directly involved in RMT.

Lets once and for all prove or disprove these accusations.

For all those people who truly believe that alliances are involved in RMT.. now is the time to put up or shut up.
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-01-11 11:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lets once and for all prove or disprove these accusations.


A lack of proof isn't the same as disproof. Even if CCP were to thoroughly investigate each nullsec alliance and subsequently announce that they discovered no illicit activity, the matter still wouldn't be settled. CCP may simply have failed to catch them.

Consider this aspect of modus tollens:

Quote:
If the watch-dog detects an intruder, the dog will bark.
The dog did not bark.
Therefore, no intruder was detected by the watch-dog.


It would be a logical fallacy to say, "The dog did not bark. Therefore, there is no intruder."

For my part, I choose not to have any opinion at all about large-scale alliance RMT. I personally have no proof and can't verify any of the rumors, and that's about as far as my capabilities extend.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2012-01-11 12:06:00 UTC
Anyone got a link to the russian chest beating about how his RMT ring paid for a condo or a car or something?
Prince Kobol
#4 - 2012-01-11 12:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
hmm..

@Ursula LeGuinn so not matter what is done you will always believe alliances take part in RMT.. well that is fair.

@baltec1 - Here you go

I brought several house and a multitude of cars, drugs and hookers with the money I made from RMT playing Eve..

Is that proof.. must be because I posted on the internet and that means it real Blink
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#5 - 2012-01-11 12:18:25 UTC
personally if i found anyone in my alliance botting or rmt'ing i would awox the **** out of them, but thats just me..

I think it's just one of those xenophobic accusations against the russians, i think it happens, but not on the scale that people exagerate it to be. Personally I have seen fleets of mackinaws in null that all warp as one the second a nuet pops their head into local, but that has only been a few times ove 6 years.

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#6 - 2012-01-11 12:19:40 UTC


Ursula LeGuinn wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lets once and for all prove or disprove these accusations.


A lack of proof isn't the same as disproof. Even if CCP were to thoroughly investigate each nullsec alliance and subsequently announce that they discovered no illicit activity, the matter still wouldn't be settled. CCP may simply have failed to catch them.

Consider this aspect of modus tollens:

Quote:
If the watch-dog detects an intruder, the dog will bark.
The dog did not bark.
Therefore, no intruder was detected by the watch-dog.


It would be a logical fallacy to say, "The dog did not bark. Therefore, there is no intruder."

For my part, I choose not to have any opinion at all about large-scale alliance RMT. I personally have no proof and can't verify any of the rumors, and that's about as far as my capabilities extend.



Just want to point out the OP's point is that it is mostly rumours.



baltec1 wrote:
Anyone got a link to the russian chest beating about how his RMT ring paid for a condo or a car or something?


So one person represents the whole?

We can throw Ricdic out there as well, if I remember correctly. Would that make all the Top Traders and/or Scammers guilty as well?


Slade
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-01-11 12:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
I don't have time for people like you. You deliberately exaggerate certain unprovable uncertainties, often times for self gain. Where in hell do you think the RMT's are going to post what they do on an open forum? Right, they will do it over Skytype, TS3 or over the phone.



The fact that you only have affiliations with your own corp or alliance (or claim to) means that you have absolutely no authority to speak on this subject whatsoever. You are not even qualified to take an educated guess.






So why don't you just stop posting. Ugh

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Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#8 - 2012-01-11 12:25:38 UTC
Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.
Kitten Arbosa
#9 - 2012-01-11 12:26:45 UTC
Part of it is the innate easiness to assign RL value to ISK. I mean, if you knew you were sitting on, say $40,000 worth of ISK, and all you needed to do was unload it....

The other part is simple psychology. the average Joe in EVE would go "hells yeah cash out". Next thought is "Well if *I*, being honorable Joe EVE would do it..then obvs those scumbags over in That Corp are doing it. They already jerks."
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-01-11 12:26:55 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.



Have you been at the leadership level?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#11 - 2012-01-11 12:29:20 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.



Have you been at the leadership level?


Yes.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-01-11 12:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.



Have you been at the leadership level?


Yes.




Well, when I was involved in the higher up workings the general rule of thumb was always "we don't talk about it". So I say that your lying. I can fly into Null any day of the week and find them Botting systems. Whoever says botting and RMT are not related has no idea how the two things connect, or how they work.



From secondlife to EVE online, people are cashing in on digital currency.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2012-01-11 12:33:31 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

@baltec1 - Here you go

I brought several house and a multitude of cars, drugs and hookers with the money I made from RMT playing Eve..

Is that proof.. must be because I posted on the internet and that means it real Blink


If you want total proof it happens go look up the guy who payed off some of his mortgage with isk he stole from a bank he ran.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#14 - 2012-01-11 12:35:24 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:



Well, when I was involved in the higher up workings the general rule of thumb was always "we don't talk about it". So I say that your lying. I can fly into Null any day of the week and find them Botting systems. Whoever says botting and RMT are not related has no idea how the two things connect, or how they work.

From secondlife to EVE online, people are cashing in on digital currency.



Lol. Say what you want. I think I have you and your agenda labeled.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-01-11 12:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:



Well, when I was involved in the higher up workings the general rule of thumb was always "we don't talk about it". So I say that your lying. I can fly into Null any day of the week and find them Botting systems. Whoever says botting and RMT are not related has no idea how the two things connect, or how they work.

From secondlife to EVE online, people are cashing in on digital currency.



Lol. Say what you want. I think I have you labeled.




Backatcha buddy.
You're like these people who yell "there is no global warming" exaggerating scientific uncertainties for political gain. But it's real yo. So like I said, I don't have time for people like you.



If you are sociable enough in game over broad enough regions, you start to see people talking about it casually. If you really were part of the leadership of prominent alliances, they you must have caught on to it. Or... your lying your ass off because you yourself have bought a bot, and the RMT's are crucial to the ISK flow of the ISK you farm.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#16 - 2012-01-11 12:40:06 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Can somebody show me some sort of evidence that shows an alliance or corporation, whether they be in high / low or null that is directly involved in RMT.


I'm just quoting the most important question there.
It's not about modus tollens ("the way that denies by denying") as another poster here wrote.
It's about proof. Show and tell or it's all just inflated hearsay and perpetuated lies.

o/

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-11 12:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
Prince Kobol wrote:
@Ursula LeGuinn so not matter what is done you will always believe alliances take part in RMT.. well that is fair.


Do what now?

I clearly stated that I choose to have no opinion. Put another way, I choose not to speculate. All I'm illustrating is that you cannot ever "disprove" the existence of widespread RMT activities.

If that causes you to believe I'm an RMT "believer," then you're jumping to conclusions.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-01-11 12:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Thorn Galen wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Can somebody show me some sort of evidence that shows an alliance or corporation, whether they be in high / low or null that is directly involved in RMT.


I'm just quoting the most important question there.
It's not about modus tollens ("the way that denies by denying") as another poster here wrote.
It's about proof. Show and tell or it's all just inflated hearsay and perpetuated lies.

o/



What is proof?


Recorded TS3, where a guy is "bragging" about it his RMT...... but nah, he didn't really do it, he is just blowing wind.
A fleet warping off as soon as a neutral enters system...... but nah, he just has multiple accounts.
Or... "he is just dedicated to the game" that is why he is so focused on taking that region 23/7. He didn't get paid to do it.
Those mountains of hulks mining like oompaloopas deep in drone space 23/7, they are just there for the scenery!




You won't consider anything to be "sufficient proof", so you should STFU too. What do you expect? CCP to subpoena players bank statements? Even then.... "That didn't come from RMT, LOL I mow lawns on the side!" Your opinion means nothing.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-01-11 12:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
Thorn Galen wrote:

It's about proof. Show and tell or it's all just inflated hearsay and perpetuated lies.


That's a logical fallacy. Logically speaking, you can say only, "Show and tell, or your accusations are unsubstantiated."

Which is fair enough, but it's not the same thing as disproof.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2012-01-11 12:50:00 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:



What is proof?


Recorded TS3, where a guy is "bragging" about it.... but nah, he didn't really do it, he is just blowing wind.
A fleet warping off as soon as a neutral enters system... nah, he just has multiple accounts.
Or... "he is just dedicated to the game" that is why he is so focused on taking that region 23/7. He didn't get paid to do it.
Those mountains of hulks mining like oompaloopas deep in drone space 23/7, they are just there for the scenery!





You won't consider anything to be "sufficient proof", so you should STFU too.


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