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New dev blog: Remember the old new Neocom?

First post First post
Author
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#161 - 2012-01-25 02:06:44 UTC
UI windows, which are open, should not create on-demand / ad-hoc icons in the Neocom bar until minimized. Things like the corp hangar, the deliveries window, your ships cargo bay / ship bay / corp hangar / ore bay, etc.

The neocom badly needs a "separator" item (null item) which is nothing more then a line with a bit of white space on either side. Which would let us group things visually. In fact, there should be a "null" item at the bottom of the "static" portion of the list, with any ad-hoc additions to the list of buttons added below that point.

The neocom needs a "small icons" option, to trim the size of the icons by about 75% (maybe even 50%).
Sieges
#162 - 2012-01-25 03:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sieges
EDIT: I actually like the new Neocom. I retract my wishlist.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#163 - 2012-01-25 05:14:38 UTC
Can we get alot more windows in the E button? Like all the hard to find obscure ones as well? Make eve a turely customizable experince?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-01-25 05:36:45 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
UI windows, which are open, should not create on-demand / ad-hoc icons in the Neocom bar until minimized. Things like the corp hangar, the deliveries window, your ships cargo bay / ship bay / corp hangar / ore bay, etc.

The neocom badly needs a "separator" item (null item) which is nothing more then a line with a bit of white space on either side. Which would let us group things visually. In fact, there should be a "null" item at the bottom of the "static" portion of the list, with any ad-hoc additions to the list of buttons added below that point.

The neocom needs a "small icons" option, to trim the size of the icons by about 75% (maybe even 50%).


Agreed with everything, especially the separator.

As for the small icons issue, you can actually resize the neocom, which naturally resizes the icons while at it too. Was actually surprised at how small you can get the whole bar and the icons in conjunction with the 90% UI scaling.
Ruziel
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
#165 - 2012-01-25 05:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruziel
CCP Optimal wrote:
Also, for windows that are already pinned to the Neocom, you don't really care too much if the window is closed or minimized, as long as it pops in your face when you click the button. This also results in the nice side effect that windows generally take much less time to maximize than to open. As with all new functionality, this will of course take a little bit of getting used to.


You may not care what happens when you minimize, but I think the new behavior is utterly stupid. When I want a window minimized, I want it minimized on the bottom, not closed.


CCP Optimal wrote:
Removing functionality is very bad, unless you replace it with something better and that's what we're hoping to do with the new Neocom. If you still won't agree after having used it for a while, obviously we'll need to iterate.


I don't agree.

Removing the minimize functionality was the wrong choice. Removing functionality != Better.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2012-01-25 06:06:31 UTC
Ruziel wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
Also, for windows that are already pinned to the Neocom, you don't really care too much if the window is closed or minimized, as long as it pops in your face when you click the button. This also results in the nice side effect that windows generally take much less time to maximize than to open. As with all new functionality, this will of course take a little bit of getting used to.


You may not care what happens when you minimize, but I think the new behavior is utterly stupid. When I want a window minimized, I want it minimized on the bottom, not closed.


CCP Optimal wrote:
Removing functionality is very bad, unless you replace it with something better and that's what we're hoping to do with the new Neocom. If you still won't agree after having used it for a while, obviously we'll need to iterate.


I don't agree.

Removing the minimize functionality was the wrong choice. Removing functionality != Better.


That's just it, they didn't remove the minimize functionality, they changed it so that the windows minimize to the buttons used to open them in the first place. The behaviour is familiar to pretty much everyone who's using Windows 7 or Mac OS. Naturally for those using older OS's it might take a while to get used to.
Ruziel
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
#167 - 2012-01-25 06:34:48 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
That's just it, they didn't remove the minimize functionality, they changed it so that the windows minimize to the buttons used to open them in the first place. The behaviour is familiar to pretty much everyone who's using Windows 7 or Mac OS. Naturally for those using older OS's it might take a while to get used to.


Which for items that already have a Neocom icon is indistinguishable from closing them. When I minimize thew, I wan them at the bottom like they were before, so I can quickly bring them back to my attention instead of sitting there looking at the Neocom trying to remember what the hell I had open before I "minimized" them to turn my attention somewhere else for a minute.

I'm all for improving the interface, hell it needs it, but not at the expense of existing functionality that could have easily been kept for those that want it. You have people like me who are now fighting 3+ years of muscle memory when working with the interface, especially with respect to the ordering of the buttons.

How much effort would it have taken to keep the old order of the buttons, and then have people rearrange them if they wish? Minimal, with the benefit of not annoying the **** out of people.

Also, in windows, when you have a window minimized on the task bar, there's still some indication that the window is open but minimized, it's highlighted. The new Neocom? Not so much, there isn't any indication that the window has been minimized instead of closed.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-01-25 08:32:56 UTC
Ruziel wrote:
Also, in windows, when you have a window minimized on the task bar, there's still some indication that the window is open but minimized, it's highlighted. The new Neocom? Not so much, there isn't any indication that the window has been minimized instead of closed.


Actually if you look at it, you do have an indicator of the window being minimized. On the default black UI color, you get a shade of grey for the button for all windows that are either open or minimized. Sure it could be clearer, but for anyone with properly set up colors, brightness etc, it should be visible.
Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-01-25 09:57:27 UTC
I like the new neocom so far except for just one thing: Chat channels being minimised into one icon.

I used to have each intel channel minimised to the bottom of the screen, that way I can see which intel channel is flashing and open just that one, now if any activte I have to open an icon and then see if its relevent to where I am. It may not seem like much but when it is flashing every 5 seconds about irrelevent information it is very very irritating.

Can we not pin individual channels we need to the neocom bar and add a tag to them?

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Disdaine
#170 - 2012-01-25 09:57:53 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
UI windows, which are open, should not create on-demand / ad-hoc icons in the Neocom bar until minimized. Things like the corp hangar, the deliveries window, your ships cargo bay / ship bay / corp hangar / ore bay, etc.


This. Open cargo bay using shortcut, cargo bay icon appears in neocom.

Label and member count on minimised chat windows. Don't automatically group minimised chat windows. After deleting the original chat group so windows would minimise I can get local minimising straight to neocom bar, minimise another chat panel and it groups with local.

Customizable icons for those minimised windows.

Moveable items and ships buttons.

Bring back minimised windows.

Bring back old neocom.
Raiykjab
Federal Navy Academy
#171 - 2012-01-25 10:02:35 UTC
So in the past all I had to do was looking for minimized windows titles to get it back right with a quick look.
Now we gotta mouse over everything to find the good one.

Imagine your favourite browser get an update. Tabs now are expended verticaly, they removed the pages titles so you don't know which one is what without a mouse over, and left only the website icons, only problem is in eve it's always the same icon.

If you don t know what I mean, open the browser, a mail or notification, a few agent discussions and a module info, have them minimized. Now what I got is 4 blue Question icons which need to be mouse hovered to identify, when with the old UI they were all minimized at the bottom with a title so i could immediately go click on the correct one.

This is a HUGE step backward!, and it's even worse on my 14.1 inch 1280x800 screen since neocom fill up so fast now half of the minimized windows are in a submenu.

Big step backward sadly.

Eve has miners?!

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2012-01-25 10:22:56 UTC
This is junk - rollback thank you.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Disdaine
#173 - 2012-01-25 12:01:15 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
This is junk - rollback thank you.


+1
Holy Cheater
Monks of War
#174 - 2012-01-25 13:43:04 UTC
This new neocom is absolutely ugly.
First, you can't turn it off to the old one
Second, it is not obvious what button will show dropdown menu and what will not
Third, I WANT THE COLLAPSED CHAT WINDOWS AT THE BOTTOM, NOT IN THE UGLY MENU Evil

So give me my old stuff back or I'm cancelling the subscription. It's unusable.
Serajasko
Space Research and Innovation
#175 - 2012-01-25 13:53:27 UTC
Its a bit hard to work right now.

I recieve a new message guess what; the EveMail Icon does not blink. However the E does and i have to go through all the menus and click eveMail to stop the annoying blinking.

Another point is the "group" thing; it doesnt function for every button. Try to add all "business" icons to 1 group. It fails to add them.

Would be nice if we could also "rename" our groups :)
Cee Dublyew
Loretta Holding Corp
#176 - 2012-01-25 16:21:57 UTC
Thank you. I look forward to more tweaking to make things better as time goes on.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#177 - 2012-01-25 18:04:48 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Ruziel wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
Also, for windows that are already pinned to the Neocom, you don't really care too much if the window is closed or minimized, as long as it pops in your face when you click the button. This also results in the nice side effect that windows generally take much less time to maximize than to open. As with all new functionality, this will of course take a little bit of getting used to.


You may not care what happens when you minimize, but I think the new behavior is utterly stupid. When I want a window minimized, I want it minimized on the bottom, not closed.


CCP Optimal wrote:
Removing functionality is very bad, unless you replace it with something better and that's what we're hoping to do with the new Neocom. If you still won't agree after having used it for a while, obviously we'll need to iterate.


I don't agree.

Removing the minimize functionality was the wrong choice. Removing functionality != Better.


That's just it, they didn't remove the minimize functionality, they changed it so that the windows minimize to the buttons used to open them in the first place. The behaviour is familiar to pretty much everyone who's using Windows 7 or Mac OS. Naturally for those using older OS's it might take a while to get used to.


So we're using Windows 7 and Microsoft as a standard for feature quality now? Lol

Nah just joking, i'm a mcts for windows 7 so i ought to look the part.


Windows 7 minimizes and group windows together in the taskbar, but you can preview them by hovering your mouse over the icon, no need to click. Also, if you don't like it you can disable it in your settings and have old Windows XP mode back. And ALSO, you can cycle between those windows with the respective Winkey+TaskBar# which is MUCH more intuitive and usefull than the current Ctrl-Tab cycling in EVE is.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Arec Bardwin
#178 - 2012-01-25 20:01:58 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
I like the new neocom so far except for just one thing: Chat channels being minimised into one icon.

I used to have each intel channel minimised to the bottom of the screen, that way I can see which intel channel is flashing and open just that one, now if any activte I have to open an icon and then see if its relevent to where I am. It may not seem like much but when it is flashing every 5 seconds about irrelevent information it is very very irritating.

Can we not pin individual channels we need to the neocom bar and add a tag to them?

So much this. The way the neocom handles chat windows needs to be improved. Make it possible to minimize single chat windows and organize chat windows into groups.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-01-25 20:52:00 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
So we're using Windows 7 and Microsoft as a standard for feature quality now? Lol

Nah just joking, i'm a mcts for windows 7 so i ought to look the part.


Windows 7 minimizes and group windows together in the taskbar, but you can preview them by hovering your mouse over the icon, no need to click. Also, if you don't like it you can disable it in your settings and have old Windows XP mode back. And ALSO, you can cycle between those windows with the respective Winkey+TaskBar# which is MUCH more intuitive and usefull than the current Ctrl-Tab cycling in EVE is.


No, not about quality. Never said anything about that. Merely pointed out that the minimize function still exists. Agreed 100% that the win-tab and even alt-tab (preview included with Win7) works better than the in game ctrl-tab version. I find several straight out flaws in the current edition of the neocom, but apart from the chat button, to me it was still an improvement over the old one.

Would very much welcome the option of removing the chat button from blinking, without having to resort to tricks like pushing the button out of screen so that it can be removed entirely. Would also like the option of having chat windows minimize to the bottom of the screen, even if everything else would minimize to the buttons. Along with this, I'd like to see some of the buttons work like the others, such as the browser which if dragged to the panel, actually adds another button whenever it's open, one that doesn't have the proper browser icon. There are several other cases where the same thing happens. Then there's the groups that you can make for icons, to me it seems incredibly silly to not have the option of renaming them at all, or changing the icon to something distinguishable. Good example being using the F10 map icon for a group that includes the in game map, Ombeve, Dotlan and StaticMapper. Similarily a market group with popular market websites and the in game market tools.

In other words, it could use a lot of work, but I fail to see how it's a deal breaker like it seems to be for some people who are already threatening with canceling their subscriptions over it.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2012-01-26 02:55:02 UTC
Let's think about the neocom...

What it is?
-> Utility to access various in-game tools. containers and settings.

Easiest way to access such individual item?
-> Single mouse click or keyboard shortcut.

Best way to make such access possible?
-> Single icons if screen estate allows.

Would hide feature be useful?
-> Yes if it releases screen estate while neocom is hidden.

Would some menu structure be useful?
-> No as long screen estate allows all needed buttons be visible at once.
-> If all buttons do not fit, next obvious step would store more rarely used buttons under group, which would add only 1 mouse click to access them.

Would configuring visible buttons and grouping be useful?
-> Most likely, because many people like to customize their user interface.

Should default button setup remain as it was in old neocom?
-> Absolutely.

Would there be any reason what so ever to add more stuff to neocom like cargo containers, scanners or query windows?
-> None what so ever.

Would there be any valid reason to minimize windows to neocom and hide their labels?
-> None what so ever.

Would there be any valid reason to add area for taskbar to bottom of the user interface where windows would minimize with their labels enabled.
-> It might give more professional look, but still keep the functionality as it was.

Would there be any valid reason to add separate chat button?
-> Can't think one which would not add mouse clicks to access minimized chats.

Would there be any reason to add separate channels button?
-> Probably useful to make finding new chats easier. Old channels button is pretty well hidden.
-> This button could also have links to already open chats, but should not be the main access route and should not light the icon on update.

Would there be any reason to add compare tool button?
-> Absolutely. It is really hard to access without shortcut keys and neocom icon.

How icons should attract player when there is something new going on?
-> With 2-3 blinks and icon should remain highlighted untill accessed.
-> Blinking should activate again if there is further new things taking place, even the button weren't "reseted".

Should the neocom be resizeable?
-> Depends if there is anything to gain/lose from that. Mostly cosmetic and personal preference.
-> Should be fully optional and customizable.

So... how did this task end up so horribly wrong?

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest