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Compressed Ore and the Mysterious Maths
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Echo Vector
Kailaini Corporation
#1 - 2012-01-09 16:02:02 UTC
I have tried every which way, short of going to Jita and buying a single block of each and every type of compressed ore, to figure out how to price the bloody stuff.

I openly admit that I suck cheesy balls at math. Not everyone can play a bloody piano.

All I'm begging for is the answer to the questions, do all ores and ices compress the same, and if not, where the bloody hell is a reference to the amounts?

And if they do, WTF is the ratio?

I *HATE* having to come out of the closet and beg for informations.............

Thanks in advance for all reaponses, even the inevitable flames and trolls.
Hrodgar Ortal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-09 16:11:42 UTC
Echo Vector
Kailaini Corporation
#3 - 2012-01-09 16:21:00 UTC
Hrodgar Ortal wrote:
No they don't compress the same.

http://www.eve-wiki.net/?title=Haladas_Mining_Guide#The_Rorqual_-_Big_Mama_ORE


THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Echo Vector
Kailaini Corporation
#4 - 2012-01-09 16:38:36 UTC
Ok, so now I demonstrate me stupidity at maths, ( or maybe me underestimation of the fraud in Jita?)

Take Compressed Veldspar.

Takes 166,500 ore units to compress into 1 block.

166,500 ore units refine into 500,000 Tritanium. ( 166,500 divided by 333 units to refine = 500, mulitplied by 1000 minerals per refine run = 500,000. )

At Jita prices, a compressed Veld block is selling @ 5,000,000

At Jita prices, Trit is going for 3.86.

The last time I looked at a calculator, 3.86 * 500,000 = 1,930,000

Someone please tell me my maths are correct and the price of compressed or in Jita is like 2.something times what it ought to be?

Sad
Indalecia
#5 - 2012-01-09 16:49:10 UTC
Echo Vector wrote:
Ok, so now I demonstrate me stupidity at maths, ( or maybe me underestimation of the fraud in Jita?)

Take Compressed Veldspar.

Takes 166,500 ore units to compress into 1 block.

166,500 ore units refine into 500,000 Tritanium. ( 166,500 divided by 333 units to refine = 500, mulitplied by 1000 minerals per refine run = 500,000. )

At Jita prices, a compressed Veld block is selling @ 5,000,000

At Jita prices, Trit is going for 3.86.

The last time I looked at a calculator, 3.86 * 500,000 = 1,930,000

Someone please tell me my maths are correct and the price of compressed or in Jita is like 2.something times what it ought to be?

Sad



Your math looks correct, but your conclusion is flawed. Just because can be turned into X amount of minerals doesn't meant it should have the same price. Look at T1 ships and modules, for example.

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Echo Vector
Kailaini Corporation
#6 - 2012-01-09 16:58:14 UTC
Indalecia wrote:
Echo Vector wrote:
Ok, so now I demonstrate me stupidity at maths, ( or maybe me underestimation of the fraud in Jita?)

Take Compressed Veldspar.

Takes 166,500 ore units to compress into 1 block.

166,500 ore units refine into 500,000 Tritanium. ( 166,500 divided by 333 units to refine = 500, mulitplied by 1000 minerals per refine run = 500,000. )

At Jita prices, a compressed Veld block is selling @ 5,000,000

At Jita prices, Trit is going for 3.86.

The last time I looked at a calculator, 3.86 * 500,000 = 1,930,000

Someone please tell me my maths are correct and the price of compressed or in Jita is like 2.something times what it ought to be?

Sad



Your math looks correct, but your conclusion is flawed. Just because can be turned into X amount of minerals doesn't meant it should have the same price. Look at T1 ships and modules, for example.




Thanks for the verification of me maths. As for the rest, well, unless there's a use for a compressed block of ore I've not been made aware of, it's only value is in the refining, and as such, to me, it is only worth it's weight in minerals.

Now, if ye can tell a bloke how one could FLY a compressed block of minerals, or perhaps how to use it as some explosive or incendiary device.......................................................

Cool
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2012-01-09 17:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
If you're wanting to move minerals, I'd suggest not using compressed ore.
800mm Repeating Artillery I has a ratio of 2459 tritanium per m3.
Compressed Veldspar has a ratio of 1199 per m3.

And the gun gives you a bunch of other minerals at the same time.

http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/ lists the compression rates per mineral


The real reason for compressed ore, is for moving ore to refining stations.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#8 - 2012-01-09 17:48:54 UTC
There's something wrong when you see a good sell on the market for less than its refine value. Something wrong with you, that is. But when you see a good sell higher than its refine value? That's normal.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#9 - 2012-01-09 19:41:53 UTC
Can compressed ore be refined at a POS refinery? That might be the use, its easy to move into a W-system in order to make capitol ships in there, and why it may be more expensive than minerals. Its worth the convenience. And no, you cannot reprocess 1400mm guns at a POS.

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Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-01-09 20:26:57 UTC
The main use for compressed (low end) ores - either through Rorqual compression or (more often) by building various modules that have high compression ratios, is to supply minerals to deep 0.0 Capital Ship Assembly Arrays that are busy nursing baby Titans and Supercarriers into EVE.

In case you have never done the math, the mineral requirements of Titans are just ridiculous. As an example, here is what someone hauled to build ME2 Erebus (well, the required capital components);

34200 * 425mm Railgun I
15470 * Passive Targeter I
9,895,000 * Mexallon
2,346,000 * Nocxium
2.050.200 * Zydrine
471.600 * Pyerite
221.400 * Megacyte

(about 7 Jump Freighter loads, even with massive compression)

And just for reference, 425mm Railgun I reprocesses to

102,492 Tritanium
26,293 Pyerite
plus various smaller amounts of other things

And Passive Targeter I to...

12,500 Tritanium

So... Tritanium pile alone is

3,524,563,900 units

Yes, that's 3.5 billion units of Tritanium. For one ship. And the mountain of Pyerite and Mexallon is also pretty nice. Guess how many Jump Freighter loads that would be in raw Tritanium. (spoiler: 35 245 639m3, or roughly 100-105 Jump Freighter loads)

So you might now understand why more densely packed low end minerals are more valuable than the minerals themselves. It takes quite a while to build 34200 425mm Railgun I:s even with multiple characters and multiple researched 425mm Railgun I BPOs. So people with enough ISK to build these things take whatever well compressed Trit and other low ends they can find at a good price.

Granted, in most cases it is done with modules, not compressed ore, but this is the general logic for the price difference. Nobody expects anyone to buy compressed ore except to load up on a JF and haul it to some deep corner of 0.0 where it gets reprocessed and loaded into a CSAA by the freighterload...
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-01-09 21:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
either I fail at math (more likely than you think) or your friend is bad at math or there is some metric other than volume he is optimizing for.

My little spreadsheet suggests:

22,962 Tritanium (*)
2,401,815 Zydrine
65 Megacyte
2,923 Gas Cloud Harvester I
59,637 800mm Repeating Artillery I

which yields the same mineral bouquet

Tritanium Pyerite Mexallon Isogen Nocxium Zydrine Megacyte Morphite
3.698.601.400 899.692.200 309.897.400 81.567.000 15.000.000 2.700.000 1.350.000 0

in 1,529,788 m^3 (as opposed to your friend's 2,246,592 m^3)


(*) I only have the 10 (linear independent) modules with the highest compression ratio in the sheet which excludes passive targeters, should really add them though.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2012-01-10 00:58:40 UTC
Another useful reference (scroll down):
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/ship_rorqual.php
Ave Volta
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-10 05:15:04 UTC
Calling Kazuo Ishiguro...

He used to be *the* compression guy. Maybe lost in space...

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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-01-10 07:06:41 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
either I fail at math (more likely than you think) or your friend is bad at math or there is some metric other than volume he is optimizing for.

My little spreadsheet suggests:

22,962 Tritanium (*)
2,401,815 Zydrine
65 Megacyte
2,923 Gas Cloud Harvester I
59,637 800mm Repeating Artillery I

which yields the same mineral bouquet

Tritanium Pyerite Mexallon Isogen Nocxium Zydrine Megacyte Morphite
3.698.601.400 899.692.200 309.897.400 81.567.000 15.000.000 2.700.000 1.350.000 0

in 1,529,788 m^3 (as opposed to your friend's 2,246,592 m^3)


(*) I only have the 10 (linear independent) modules with the highest compression ratio in the sheet which excludes passive targeters, should really add them though.


He's building 49,670 modules (if I did the math correctly). All the modules in question have a base 8 minute build time (at Industry V). That's about 4:45 seconds a build at a POS array (not counting implants). That's about 3932 man/hours or around 16 days to build with ten lines.

Your suggestion comes to 62,560 modules or 4,952 man hours or around 20 days to build.

Assuming that the poster can place all 10 of those lines into production making 100K/hour (and a cap producer can probably do much better than that) the poster saved about 96,000,000.00 isk by using the quicker build.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-01-10 08:40:31 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:

He's building 49,670 modules (if I did the math correctly). All the modules in question have a base 8 minute build time (at Industry V). That's about 4:45 seconds a build at a POS array (not counting implants). That's about 3932 man/hours or around 16 days to build with ten lines.

Your suggestion comes to 62,560 modules or 4,952 man hours or around 20 days to build.

Assuming that the poster can place all 10 of those lines into production making 100K/hour (and a cap producer can probably do much better than that) the poster saved about 96,000,000.00 isk by using the quicker build.

thanks, that's a good explanation.