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[Proposal] - Probing cloaked ships
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Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-01-31 15:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
If you can scan down cloakers, then cloaking becomes useless. You might as well advocate for its removal from the game.


No, if you can scan down cloakers, in some minutes, you will make them move, making harder for them ( at last harder then siting/sleeping ) ... or if you are better pilot then they are and/or are lucky there would be a chance to get and kill them... read this:

CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf wrote:

Cloack Hunters: CCP brought up the possibility of a future cloak-hunting ship or mechanics as a hypothetival; this was described as 'more like finding a submarine than pulling a blanket off' a cloaked ship. the CSM was cautiously positive about the idea of a cloak-hunting vessel of some kind.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#42 - 2012-01-31 16:26:28 UTC

I have several points to add in:

I'm not opposed to a de-cloak mechanism.... something like probes could work well.. HOWEVER, there are several points or addendums I must add:

1.) (BO) Jump Portals: The majority of a danger from an AFK cloaker (assuming he's no longer afk and actually hunting your sorry ass down), is hotdrops. If hotdrops were more vulnerable (i.e., not an instant protal for a gang to enter), then a HUGE part of the afk-cloaker danger would be allieviated. This would allow the locals to actually assess the danger the local represents, and fly in gang's that mitigate the risk a cloaker poses. Truthfully, hotdrops have far more "issues" than mentioned here, and a hotdrop balancing will solve most of the AFK cloaking problems (that is, for competent pilots...).

2.) The risk: Having the ability to hunt down cloakers has a lot of benefits for a system owner. They could deny access to station, destroy all enemy POS's, and now probe down all enemies in space... effectively removing ALL DANGER from the system. This is unacceptable, as the only way a nullsec resident would then die is via very unfortunate timing (an untimely NPC scram, or you land on a gate at the same time as an enemy enters system) or incompetence (you keep belt ratting when enemies enter system). Any anti-cloaker technology needs to be balanced with our instant I-Know-Who-Entered-Local Intel tool. Essentially, the only way to balance the "I-can-remove-all-dangers-from-system playstyle is to significantly alter local, or create a new intel system that doesn't provide instant intel on who is in local. IMO, for the sake of balance, any new intel system must balance the predator and prey relationship. An alert and competent prey nees to be provided with enough intel to be safe 95+% of the time, but ALWAYS have a small risk of danger, especially when working ALONE!!!!

3.) Cloaks: Cloaks are currently a very powerful tool. They allow you to hide from an enemy (be it to stay safe or suprise attack), and they allow you to navigate gate camps that would otherwise be impassible. If we create a de-cloaking tool, it MUST not destroy the above benefits of a cloak, or you essentially nerf entire classes of ships and modules. There is a diametrically opposed idea there... you want to scan down a ship that is using a cloak to stay safe. This means, whatever the mechanic to decloak a ship, it must be balanced so that scanning down a ship is expensive (moreso with time than isk) and unusual. The standard roaming gang should NOT readily expend the energy to find a cloaked ratting raven.... but perhaps would take the time to find a ratting carrier (which will then just log off to stay safe).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#43 - 2012-01-31 19:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Alx Warlord wrote:


So, going out of a POS with a hulk to mine, or with an Nightmare or a thanatos to kill some rats is not a prove of courage, but a prove that you don't know how things are in EVE... Giving an easy kill like this is more then a reason to get kicked from most of the serious corps/alliances!

Depending on what is your business you will have to wait the afk cloaker to lave/logoff and it can take some days, ruining your fun.... For example, moving Billions of ISK like Outposts parts, BPOs, Systems Upgrades, WH salvage, technetium, officer modules... none of these shoud be done with a unfriendly ship in the local...

There must be a way to put some resistance...




1.) If you are afraid to lose your thanny or Nightmare, perhaps you should rat in a Dominix or Drake... You can run most plexes just fine in far less blingy ships. People will grow bored and annoyed of hotdropping you if they only get a drake kill, but if you keep flashing nightmares and thanny's, they'll keep up the efforts for months!!!

2.) You can go to the system next door, and PvE there...

3.) You can fly in groups... 4 drakes can fly through anomalies, and destroy most cloaky threats very quickly, and if they can't, most can gtfo before they are caught. You can also get into safe habbits to keep your ship safe while ratting.

4.) If you're moving Billions of isk... YOU SHOULD HAVE AN ESCORT. With JF's, JB's, cloaky transports, tanky transports, and fleet support, you already have a ton of options to move your stuff safely. Quit sitting in the corner cowering at the shadows.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-02-01 15:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

OMG, this makes me laugh and cry at the same time....

1.) If you are afraid to lose your thanny or Nightmare, perhaps you should rat in a Dominix or Drake... You can run most plexes just fine in far less blingy ships. People will grow bored and annoyed of hotdropping you if they only get a drake kill, but if you keep flashing nightmares and thanny's, they'll keep up the efforts for months!!!

2.) You can go to the system next door, and PvE there...

3.) You can fly in groups... 4 drakes can fly through anomalies, and destroy most cloaky threats very quickly, and if they can't, most can gtfo before they are caught. You can also get into safe habbits to keep your ship safe while ratting.

4.) If you're moving Billions of isk... YOU SHOULD HAVE AN ESCORT. With JF's, JB's, cloaky transports, tanky transports, and fleet support, you already have a ton of options to move your stuff safely. Quit sitting in the corner cowering at the shadows.


1- Does you mine if there is an neutral player using a SB in your system?

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-02-01 15:53:22 UTC
Ok, removing your trolling and talking about tactics of defense

Drake Draconis wrote:

Please ... concept of tactics or defense....

We deal with this sort of thing all the time in Branch and surrounding areas...


How do you guys deal with it? like if there is an SB fleet cloaked on your lvl5 industrial System, and your industry is Shut down? for example.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-02-01 16:20:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I have several points to add in:

I'm not opposed to a de-cloak mechanism.... something like probes could work well.. HOWEVER, there are several points or addendums I must add:

1.) (BO) Jump Portals: The majority of a danger from an AFK cloaker (assuming he's no longer afk and actually hunting your sorry ass down), is hotdrops. If hotdrops were more vulnerable (i.e., not an instant protal for a gang to enter), then a HUGE part of the afk-cloaker danger would be allieviated. This would allow the locals to actually assess the danger the local represents, and fly in gang's that mitigate the risk a cloaker poses. Truthfully, hotdrops have far more "issues" than mentioned here, and a hotdrop balancing will solve most of the AFK cloaking problems (that is, for competent pilots...).

2.) The risk: Having the ability to hunt down cloakers has a lot of benefits for a system owner. They could deny access to station, destroy all enemy POS's, and now probe down all enemies in space... effectively removing ALL DANGER from the system. This is unacceptable, as the only way a nullsec resident would then die is via very unfortunate timing (an untimely NPC scram, or you land on a gate at the same time as an enemy enters system) or incompetence (you keep belt ratting when enemies enter system). Any anti-cloaker technology needs to be balanced with our instant I-Know-Who-Entered-Local Intel tool. Essentially, the only way to balance the "I-can-remove-all-dangers-from-system playstyle is to significantly alter local, or create a new intel system that doesn't provide instant intel on who is in local. IMO, for the sake of balance, any new intel system must balance the predator and prey relationship. An alert and competent prey nees to be provided with enough intel to be safe 95+% of the time, but ALWAYS have a small risk of danger, especially when working ALONE!!!!

3.) Cloaks: Cloaks are currently a very powerful tool. They allow you to hide from an enemy (be it to stay safe or suprise attack), and they allow you to navigate gate camps that would otherwise be impassible. If we create a de-cloaking tool, it MUST not destroy the above benefits of a cloak, or you essentially nerf entire classes of ships and modules. There is a diametrically opposed idea there... you want to scan down a ship that is using a cloak to stay safe. This means, whatever the mechanic to decloak a ship, it must be balanced so that scanning down a ship is expensive (moreso with time than isk) and unusual. The standard roaming gang should NOT readily expend the energy to find a cloaked ratting raven.... but perhaps would take the time to find a ratting carrier (which will then just log off to stay safe).


Well, my opinion here is that there should be increased PVP and increased risks, so:
1) This is a valid point of view, although Hotdrops are good, they heat up the fight, and they should continue the way they are in my opinion, since they scale the fight to higher levels. And it would be hard to balance this without reducing the PVP level of the game... don't you think the same?
2) True. Although there are always the ships that log-off in the system and the danger could always came from the nearest system or from a WH, it is never 100% safe... And for now the only way to get a cloaked ship killed is for bad timing at gates or incompetence... this makes hunting for a cloaked ship that enters in the system Boring...
3) 100% correct!

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-02-02 03:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
I know the tactics to use baits, and how to get a cloaked ship on a campgate. Also i'm trained to avoid camp-gates while clacked. I lived on a WH, I fly protheus, arazu on pvp... And I can tell you. The game goes on even if there are cloaked ships in the system or not. At last for me. I have 3 differents chars. 1 at Nullsec, 2 at WH Space so if the WH gets boring i go play in Nullsec, and if nullsec gets boring i go back to WH. And if both gets borring I go do other things...(like thinking ways to make it less boring and posting here)

But this game is not only Rating and PVP, there are all sorts of players on EVE and you should respect their play-style .

There are players that are industrials, and what they do is to purchase and manufacture ships for PVP/PVE.

There are pilots that doesn't fly combat ships and hate PVP and also hate PVE, the like to mine... These few players are responsible for most of the minerals that are available in the market.

These players, when there are a non-blue player in the system just stays inside the force field or inside the outpost, waiting for the storm to pass or for their allies make the system safe again for them. They are not carebeers, they are the ones that build your ship, and there would be no EVE without them.

So i'm proposing a way, to increase the difficult for those who enters the system and stays cloaked for hours ruining the game of this guys and everyone say to me that i'm the noob and I dont have balls to live in nullsec?

Don't you guys want more fun in the game? less cost for ships? more PVP? a better game for small alliances?

If you open the map, pressing F10 and you look at sovereignt, and then Development Indices. You will notice that there are Militar at LVL5 everywhere, and there are almost no industrials. This means that what you say is 100% correct. People don't mine for ISK becouse it just dont woth the risk. They can make much more money killing NPCs.

What I ask if for a ballanced game where you could make a life being a pirate, a miner, an industrial, a PVE or a PVP or anything you want.

I'm not doing this proposal before thinking. But you guys are complaining about this proposal because you are thinking only on yourselves...

But of course I'm not asking for a way to make nullsec as secure as Hi-Sec, just putting some difficult for cloakers wouldn't do this. But this small fix would increase the game-play for industrials and other defenseless sorts of players, This would result on more ships and modules available on null-sec market, and more players for eve. And more fun for PVP players.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#48 - 2012-02-02 11:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
As long as the God-mode intel tool known as "local-chat" still exists, then cloaking is working exactly as it should.

Not least of all as a most delightfully potent psychological-warfare tool! Twisted

Ni.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-02-02 15:31:45 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
As long as the God-mode intel tool known as "local-chat" still exists, then cloaking is working exactly as it should.

Not least of all as a most delightfully potent psychological-warfare tool! Twisted


There is WH-Space For this. Doesn't it? Also if you read the last csm meeting minutes, CCP is working on something related to the Local chat being used as an Intel tool

And I don't think that this psychological-warfare is a good thing, it ends up pulling away people from eve. I mean, this kind of warefare works against industrials and miners on a cynojammed system, but will not work against a Hurrycane killing some rats.... since they would 1 voley any frigate that shows up. So this means that everytime that a system reach lvl5 on industry someone will show up and cloack for 1 week inside the system untill it reaches 0 again. And there is nothing that can be done,,,

I have a friend that played eve for about 5 years, he was industrial, he hated pvp. But he had amost all BPOs trained and he also had 3 Tech2 BPO. All this time he played on Hi-sec. He had lots of billions on his wallet, but he was not the kind that want to lose a single isk. Well, he tried to go to null-sec joining an alliance, he took all the minners he had there. about 7 acounts while the other 11 kept running his own things on Hi-Sec... (He is a business man in RL, pays subscription for all his 18 acc...). But what happened to him? He stayed 7 days in nullsec. In this time there was some untouchable SB in the system for about 6 days. So, despite the fact that we told him to dont leave the forcefield, the SB logged off for a couple of minutes, he put all his miners on the gravimetric and then the SB logged back again and before someone realized he had lost a hulk and a 1Bi Pod. ( Yes he is inexperienced in PVP as you guys are on Industry.) After this day he hauled everything back to hi-sec. Played 2 more weeks and then STOPED PLAYING EVE (Incursion).

This means that CCP lost 18 subscriptions on this. And there are 18 less Characters producing Ammo drones and stuff. Also some complains about some prices rising.

He had right to have fun playing EVE doesn't him? Furthermore, this is the reason for a game to exists. If we wore able to make harder for the SB to keep on the system that time, probably he would still be playing. And this is what CCP would want. Increase the fun of the game and increase the number of players.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-02-02 15:32:51 UTC
Cloaked ships should also vanish from local

Problem solved

True cloaking created

Then add in the "hunt like a submarine" thing.
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