These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Analysis of Sansha Nation Tactics
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Iche He'Tvo
Sonic Industries
#1 - 2012-01-08 23:20:31 UTC
An analysis of Sansha Nation tactics has concluded that they have no resolve to fully carry out threats and aggression made to the capsule community after the interdiction of attacks on worlds in the Empire regions as per the long winded press release.

Statistics show the densely populated systems are avoided by Sansha Nation forces and no empire infrastructure has been been destroyed to limit capsule community operations beyond the annoyance of capsule community mining operations that are mobile to begin with and easily relocated out of zones of aggression without interdiction attempts. The Sansha Nation zone of control in a given system is limited to more of a token force than any real invasion of occupation or system control.

The failure of both Concord and Navy forces to engage Sansha Nation forces suggests an agreement to allow aggression to continue on a limited scale falling short of the reported and expected goals of the Sansha Nation statement of intent. The goal it would seem is more economic in nature to the benefit of Empire corporate entities than any real threat of loss of support infrastructure as would be expected in a real threat.

The capsule community has illustrated time and again the need to limit or eliminate any support for continued operations with the goal of gaining defined objectives. The interdiction of supply routes, removal of station support if not the capture of structures to control systems and supply routes to weaken defense forces, forcing a retreat from positions of control are employed on all levels. Sansha Nation forces have not done any of this.

The failure of Sansha Nation forces to successfully employ these basic tactics illustrates the limited scope and ability of the Sansha organization to both plan and execute to gain and hold an objective to any advantage for long. The Sansha support infrastructure is able to continue production replacing massive losses with a single minded determination but the failure of the leadership planning makes this ability useless in the long term. The ability to gate organized forces to any area at any time is a huge advantage and the quality and types of equipment used beyond what is allowed to the capsule community is not to be underestimated but the poor tactics negate a real threat of long term occupation.

Available data suggests Sansha Nation forces are but a tool employed by others to further an agenda of terror rather than any real military campaign of occupation and control.
Mikkel Lybecker
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-08 23:23:18 UTC
Great I can cross them off the ever-shortening list of things I care about. Wine and biscuits in my CQ.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#3 - 2012-01-09 03:22:38 UTC
And who says their goal is outright invasion?

Be careful when considering the Sansha. To overestimate: taxing but firm. To underestimate: deadly
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-01-09 04:09:24 UTC
I would not be so quick to write off the so called Incursion tactics as completely without merit. I'll certainly agree that the immediate goal of Nation incursions clearly isn't to seize and hold space for any long period of time. At the same time I have to point out that simply taking and holding an area of space is not the be-all, end-all measure of successful military campaigning. Your conclusions regarding this apparent paradigm shift in Nation activity are, in my opinion, short-sighted and outright dangerous.

The thought that the Nation is somehow in collusion with the Empires or Concord is, at it's best, a conspiracy theory. The simple economic fact that increased capsuleer activity in the area around an Incursion stimulates the local markets is little more than common sense. Of course with increased capsuleer activity you will see increased sales in weapons and ship markets, and those capsuleers' crews will stimulate the more domestic markets by simple virtue of having to do something to unwind after a stressful day in space.

The apparent lack of Empire and Concord response doesn't necessarily suggest cooperation, rather it suggests delegation. Meaning that the Empires and Concord have their own new weapon to bring to bear against Nation, us. Capsuleer combat performance against the lower level incursions is far ahead of that of Navy combat performance during the initial attack against Nation all those years ago. I think it is simply more likely the Empires and Concord are finding it more economically feasible to pay us to handle things than it is to fully mobilize against the rank-and-file incursions. Further, there are instances when an incursion was not typical, where it was personally overseen by a True Slave or Citizen Commander, and in nearly all of those instances DED or various Empire forces were indeed mobilized and took to the field alongside capsuleers responding to the events.

Again, I agree that it seems the typical incursion is not aimed at the seizure of territory. However, I do not agree that the "failure" to occupy regions of space suggests some sort of compliance on the part of the Empires or Concord. Nor should it in any way, shape, or form lessen the threat posed by Nation. The failure of an observer to understand the intent of an action does not in any way change the efficiency of that action.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-01-09 10:15:13 UTC
It seems to be foil hat day again.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Jev North
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-01-09 12:11:54 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I think it is simply more likely the Empires and Concord are finding it more economically feasible to pay us to handle things than it is to fully mobilize against the rank-and-file incursions.

Mm, just so. How much does it cost CONCORD to mint an ISK, after all?

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#7 - 2012-01-09 14:04:33 UTC
Iche He'Tvo wrote:
An analysis of Sansha Nation tactics has concluded that they have no resolve to fully carry out threats and aggression made to the capsule community after the interdiction of attacks on worlds in the Empire regions as per the long winded press release.


Well now. I cetainly hope you can back this up.

Iche He'Tvo wrote:

Statistics show the densely populated systems are avoided by Sansha Nation forces


Incorrect.

Iche He'Tvo wrote:

The failure of both Concord and Navy forces to engage Sansha Nation forces suggests an agreement to allow aggression to continue on a limited scale falling short of the reported and expected goals of the Sansha Nation statement of intent. The goal it would seem is more economic in nature to the benefit of Empire corporate entities than any real threat of loss of support infrastructure as would be expected in a real threat.


Innaccurate.

Iche He'Tvo wrote:

The capsule community has illustrated time and again the need to limit or eliminate any support for continued operations with the goal of gaining defined objectives. The interdiction of supply routes, removal of station support if not the capture of structures to control systems and supply routes to weaken defense forces, forcing a retreat from positions of control are employed on all levels. Sansha Nation forces have not done any of this.


There is a truthful basis to this point, but still misses critical details.

**Vherokior **
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#8 - 2012-01-09 14:05:50 UTC
Iche He'Tvo wrote:

The failure of Sansha Nation forces to successfully employ these basic tactics illustrates the limited scope and ability of the Sansha organization to both plan and execute to gain and hold an objective to any advantage for long. The Sansha support infrastructure is able to continue production replacing massive losses with a single minded determination but the failure of the leadership planning makes this ability useless in the long term. The ability to gate organized forces to any area at any time is a huge advantage and the quality and types of equipment used beyond what is allowed to the capsule community is not to be underestimated but the poor tactics negate a real threat of long term occupation.


The incursions are only the surface of Sansha's efforts. There is a far wider plan in momentum than just throwing ships away.

Iche He'Tvo wrote:

Available data suggests Sansha Nation forces are but a tool employed by others to further an agenda of terror rather than any real military campaign of occupation and control.


I'm not sure where you got this part from. If you're referring to the Empires, they seem blissfully ignorant of the Nation threat. Indeed, with capsuleers, they believe they can sit back and let us do their job at our own expense. CONCORD seems to have taken a more proactive stance, which I personally applaud but believe they could be doing more.

I applaud your efforts to analyze the Nation, but I urge you to broaden your research before making such broad conclusions.

**Vherokior **
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-09 21:17:11 UTC
Just answer simple questions:
How many CONCORD and Navy vessels are downed during average incursion?
How many capsuleers was losing their ships during average incursion?
And how many sansha vessels destroyed...

CONCORD pays well capsuleers, and we keep firing sansha.
Sansha's troops are mindless drones, like the ones, that Gallente started doing from metal, but Kuvakei is making them from flesh. His 'nation' is nothing more but a box of mindless drones, who follow Kuvakei's program without analyzing their tactics and improving it in any way. Unlike capsuleers, who daily optimize their fittings, fleet compositions and tactics.

Only their master can change behavior of these drones, unless he will give them another program, mindless sanshas will continue their incursions in strict defined constellations deploying same tactics after each defeat. They don't want to win, they don't afraid to lose, they have 'steady' morale.

So, whom do you think you are helping by analyzing them? Maybe to Sansha himself, who might have already read this message, slapped his forehead and now planning something must more dangerous and terrible for all of us?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#10 - 2012-01-09 22:16:24 UTC
As conveniant as that would be, Diana Kim, that is not the case. Quite the reverse. Again, do not underestimate Nation.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#11 - 2012-01-09 23:17:37 UTC
When I first heard of the Nation attacks it was probably the most frightened I had ever been. For the first time it seemed there was a genuine threat to all of Humanity, a creature that could not only be programmed to not fear death and obey orders perfectly. Since this creature's means of reproduction was kidnapping us and turning us into them, they wouldn't have to worry about training or keeping up an infrastructure to support dependents.

The terrifying idea that my dearest friends or I could be the ones forced to kill the ones we love forced me into action and was honestly a convenient route to take since I had already assumed I'd proven myself to be loyal. Who could say I didn't have the right to fight the Nation? It would only by taking their side that I could truly turn my back on the class of people I attempted to represent.

I couldn't keep up though, it didn't take long for me to experience mental exhaustion and I anguished at the thought of giving up, of just letting these zombies win as I feared they inevitably would. I'm glad Kikia noticed me, that I joined Teraa Matar but it has upset me that I'm not still out there fighting for the freedom to think.

Good to know now that, though they're tenacious and haven't abated, just a sliver of the military force the cluster can rally in times of need can apparently hold these monsters off indefinitely.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#12 - 2012-01-09 23:28:12 UTC
Blast it, people. Even in an age of space combat, there are such things as diversions. The man's been scheming for over a hundred years! One does not take so long to plan these things out only to seemingly waste resources like this.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#13 - 2012-01-09 23:38:26 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Blast it, people. Even in an age of space combat, there are such things as diversions. The man's been scheming for over a hundred years! One does not take so long to plan these things out only to seemingly waste resources like this.


Maybe he just got impatient when he realized that no one lives forever.
wurblewind
Filthy Peasants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#14 - 2012-01-10 05:10:41 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Blast it, people. Even in an age of space combat, there are such things as diversions. The man's been scheming for over a hundred years! One does not take so long to plan these things out only to seemingly waste resources like this.


I'm going to have to agree here. That man has been planning this for too long to throw a flop at us. He's up to something, you can guarantee that much. Stay vigilant, he will play his cards eventually, and then we will crush him.

Rek, I'm sure glad you came back to humanity, we're definitely needing someone who truly knows to help talk some sense into these people.

[center]Keep low, fly fast, die well.[/center]
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-01-10 08:53:09 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
As conveniant as that would be, Diana Kim, that is not the case. Quite the reverse. Again, do not underestimate Nation.


This 'Nation' is a mere joke. The one, who should not be underestimated, is only Sansha himself. When incursions only started, it was quite a disaster, but since that time their tactics hasn't changed at all. Now they are being repelled with little or no losses from our side, and I'd like to keep it this way.

And I am not agree with 'diversion' theory. To make a successful diversion, you need to draw forces away while conducting another operation, not just sacrificing troops again and again P

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Iche He'Tvo
Sonic Industries
#16 - 2012-01-10 21:02:05 UTC
I have no wish to hear of anyone being forced into a life of mindless servitude without it being of their own choice and freewill, but then I am Minmatar.

At the onset of the Sansha incursion, planets were targeted for the population resource needed to fill the constructed war machines and manufacturing installations. Propaganda is used to recruit capsule pilots who responded to the threat with very limited success. The capsule community is then targeted for responding to the threat as we pose as much of a threat to Sansha as he does to the general population.

I only seek the truth of the matter in pointing out, no trade hubs with high capsuleer population or structures have been threatened, no systems are interdicted. The fact that capsuleer community movement is not restricted nor any of the support infrastructure has been limited is a very large military blunder on the part of incursion forces and seems to point in the direction of a business mindset rather than a military one, meaning everyone will compromise to increase a market share rather than control or dominate a combat area to dictate engagement. If there is a utopian doctrine or a supposed holy cause Sansha has not stated it as would be expected though repeated mass media outlets illustrating the need for media spin doctors on the part of Sansha.

This leaves one wonder what the point to all this is and should we as Capsuleers rely less on entrenched entities beyond our scope of influence to manipulate us. I for one, grow tired of agents needing trash hauled or wine fetched as they brag about a promotion based on my accomplishments in risking a crews lives even if they did decide to do so willingly for a paycheck.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#17 - 2012-01-10 23:16:25 UTC
Iche He'Tvo wrote:
I have no wish to hear of anyone being forced into a life of mindless servitude without it being of their own choice and freewill, but then I am Minmatar.

At the onset of the Sansha incursion, planets were targeted for the population resource needed to fill the constructed war machines and manufacturing installations. Propaganda is used to recruit capsule pilots who responded to the threat with very limited success. The capsule community is then targeted for responding to the threat as we pose as much of a threat to Sansha as he does to the general population.

I only seek the truth of the matter in pointing out, no trade hubs with high capsuleer population or structures have been threatened, no systems are interdicted. The fact that capsuleer community movement is not restricted nor any of the support infrastructure has been limited is a very large military blunder on the part of incursion forces and seems to point in the direction of a business mindset rather than a military one, meaning everyone will compromise to increase a market share rather than control or dominate a combat area to dictate engagement. If there is a utopian doctrine or a supposed holy cause Sansha has not stated it as would be expected though repeated mass media outlets illustrating the need for media spin doctors on the part of Sansha.

This leaves one wonder what the point to all this is and should we as Capsuleers rely less on entrenched entities beyond our scope of influence to manipulate us. I for one, grow tired of agents needing trash hauled or wine fetched as they brag about a promotion based on my accomplishments in risking a crews lives even if they did decide to do so willingly for a paycheck.


Again, I reccoment you check wider sources as some of the information presented here is innacurate and important details are missed.

**Vherokior **
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#18 - 2012-01-10 23:57:50 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Blast it, people. Even in an age of space combat, there are such things as diversions. The man's been scheming for over a hundred years! One does not take so long to plan these things out only to seemingly waste resources like this.


Maybe he just got impatient when he realized that no one lives forever.


There is no death in Nation.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#19 - 2012-01-11 05:13:44 UTC
There is no death in Nation.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#20 - 2012-01-11 05:23:22 UTC
So what happened to Rallence Ameteves then?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
12Next page