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T1 Cruiser balance
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Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-01-11 18:06:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Biced wrote:

super troll stabber fit.
hey bro while your at it add my geddon and mega extra 2 slots and a turret will ya?

Wow lets take a look at everything that is wrong with this.
"something something i am right..."
But you are to busy miscounting Cruiser and Battlecruiser slots to notice.


you added the stabber an extra med slot, exchange a high with a low, removed spilt weapon system, added a turret hard point, suggested to remove the speed bonus for something else and buff the base speed on the fastest t1 cruiser in game.
you can call it however you want i call it trolling.

then you compare the speed of a moa to a nanoed cane...
trolling again.
fyi the the base speed on the cane is only 1ms higher.
thrasher and merlin have the same base speed.


back on topic.

removal of the so called broken tier system and adding slot/fittings is a bad idea.

lets take the stabber give it an extra mid and enough fittings to fit an extra lse. everything else stays the same.
just a small tweak right?

used pretty standart fits on both ships running a shield setup same ammo and drone type on both
only thing worth mentioning is the low slots.

stabber tweak (2 gyro dcu) vs stabber fleet (3 gyro dcu 2 nano)

ehp: stabber 26k (11k shields) fleet 32k (12k shields). only care about shield hp so 1k shileds diff.
speed: stabber 2.4k. fleet (with 2 nanos) 2.6k. 200ms
dps: stabber 334 + 20 in drones. fleet 411 + 99 in drones or 135 (5 lights or 3 med 2 light) 80dps + 115in drones.
align: stabber 5.4 fleet 3.3 2sec diff.

so i am getting a hull that costs 10 times more for 1k shields, 200ms, 80dps and 35m3 drone bay.
will it be worth getting a stabber fleet for the dronebay and a faster align time?
cause 1k shields 200ms and 80more dps is not worth the isk.

yes you can armor tank a stabber fleet or use TE and do more real dps having more falloff,
Just wanted to show some real numbers with just a small tweak to tier2 cruiser.

Omen with 5 mpl 2s and 3 heatsinks will out dps a prophesy Twisted
If rupture can do top tier guns so should the omen right???

so what is that role the t1 cruisers fail to fulfill?
and how will they be better at that role if you remove the tier system or give them more fittings?

as far as tier 2-3 go, compare with tier1 BCs and navy versions and see how they fair. look at the other ships like destroyers and frigs.
if you do so you will see that t1 cruisers fit just right and work perfectly fine.
there is no problem with the fittings/slots the way it is right now. and changing them will make a really big mess....

only thing missing as far as the tier system goes is a lower tier pulse laser.


food for thought.

destroyers are a class higher than frigs which makes them anti frig platforms.

battle cruisers are a class higher than cruisers and they are great anti cruiser platforms.
you can argue roles as much as you want.

BCs are fairly cheap, easy to skill for and in the middle of the subcap food chain.
this is why you see so many of them around.
also the reason why t1 cruisers are not the best ship to be in. not to mention all the t2/3 cruisers, t2 bc that counter t1 cruisers just as well if not better...

you would think twice about flying frigates if there were as much destroyer as bc floating around...


so it seems to me everything worked out as intended. natural selection in a sanbox game.
but please by all means prove me wrong.
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#62 - 2012-01-11 18:32:56 UTC
@Biced:

I agree a stabber buff of that magnitude may be a bit too much, but it does need something. It shouldn't make the fleet stabber pointless, but remember this game is all about marginal performance gains for massive cost increases.

As for your Omen comments, you're comparing it to a BC that is itself in dire need of rebalancing and is commonly accepted as the least useful of all the battlecruisers (other than for obvious bait or very situational fits).



I think overall this is a problem that requires a scalpel approach rather than a machete. A slot here and there, a few PG, a few CPU - not a complete redesign.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-01-11 18:58:58 UTC
V'oba wrote:
@Biced:

I agree a stabber buff of that magnitude may be a bit too much, but it does need something. It shouldn't make the fleet stabber pointless, but remember this game is all about marginal performance gains for massive cost increases.

As for your Omen comments, you're comparing it to a BC that is itself in dire need of rebalancing and is commonly accepted as the least useful of all the battlecruisers (other than for obvious bait or very situational fits).



I think overall this is a problem that requires a scalpel approach rather than a machete. A slot here and there, a few PG, a few CPU - not a complete redesign.



did you read it?
cause from your reply it looks like you havent.
I just did "a slot here and there and a few pg cpu" 1 med slot and just enough fittings for LSE.

yes i am comparing a tier2 cruiser to a tier1 bc to show how big of a mess you are getting yourself into with t1 cruiser changes.
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#64 - 2012-01-11 19:57:01 UTC
Biced wrote:
V'oba wrote:
@Biced:

I agree a stabber buff of that magnitude may be a bit too much, but it does need something. It shouldn't make the fleet stabber pointless, but remember this game is all about marginal performance gains for massive cost increases.

As for your Omen comments, you're comparing it to a BC that is itself in dire need of rebalancing and is commonly accepted as the least useful of all the battlecruisers (other than for obvious bait or very situational fits).



I think overall this is a problem that requires a scalpel approach rather than a machete. A slot here and there, a few PG, a few CPU - not a complete redesign.



did you read it?
cause from your reply it looks like you havent.
I just did "a slot here and there and a few pg cpu" 1 med slot and just enough fittings for LSE.

yes i am comparing a tier2 cruiser to a tier1 bc to show how big of a mess you are getting yourself into with t1 cruiser changes.


My quote you used was speaking in a general sense towards all cruisers, not just the stabber. And I already said the stabber changes there were too much. The changes needed for a maller or a caracal aren't going to be the same as for an omen or a stabber.

You're proving my point by continuing with the omen - prophesy comparison. The omen is a gimped cruiser in need of a few slight changes to bring it up to par with the rest of the game. The prophesy is a weight class higher and would be easily outdone by a somewhat improved cruiser. This is an sign that the prophesy needs to be improved, not that the omen doesn't.

It's hardly a fair comparison anyway. The omen gets a bonus to guns while the proph gets a tanking bonus. A more accurate comparison would be omen --> harbinger and maller --> prophesy.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-01-11 20:09:48 UTC
I prove your point which is what exactly?

so i need to compare tier 2 cruiser with a tier 2 bc and a tier 3 cruiser with a tier 1 right...

you are pretty much asking ccp to redo 20 frigs, 20 cruisers, (after that they must rebalance navy faction) so 10 more cruisers.
and 4 bc.
and mining barges as well.

wtf is wrong with you people this is never going to happen.
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#66 - 2012-01-11 20:42:12 UTC
The point is that you need to start thinking in terms of roles, not tiers. You keep ignoring the fact that getting rid of the tier system as it is now would mean that tiers are meaningless. So you don't need to keep referencing them.

I can only assume that changing numbers in a database of ship statistics isn't very difficult. It's not a small task to get the particular stats right on each ship, but it's not impossible.

I don't even think it's improbable. If not ship balance and improvement of features, what do you want the devs to work on? New selections of pants and overcoats?
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-01-11 20:45:34 UTC
last post on this matter cause there are 2 rolling and it just gets really moronic tbh.
and its a waste of my time. will not be removed and the ships people complain about the most are fine.

tier system is fine. nothing wrong with it.

I have spent the time reading all the amzing buff ideas that people propose giving no reason at all why such buff is needed other than ship being "bad" or not having a "role".

nobody is checking other ships in the same race and what they can and can not fit.
not a single constructive proposed fix. not even to a single ship.

remove the tier system from a game that is based on a tier system. Shocked
you know how stupid this sounds? you dont have a problme with 1 or 2 ships or a weapon system.
you have a problem with all the t1 ships in eve LOL .(all but the tier3 frigs/bc and tier2 bc)

ccp please fix EVERYTHING!
keep dreaming.