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T1 Cruiser balance
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Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-07 13:43:56 UTC
We all know that T1 cruisers have a problem to fill their role. But what are they supposed to do?
Heavy tackle? Too weak tank, too slow
DPS? Too few slots for weapon upgrades, not enough cpu/pg to fill their hardpoints with good weapons
EWAR? Too few slots or low pg/cpu on the EWAR ships (except maybe the blackbird)

What they need is a few more slots/hardpoints and/or cpu/pg increase.
They are also meant to be faster and smaller then BCs to avoid the damage, they have a weak tank so they need to speed tank like the new tier 3 BCs. They sure are quite small but they lack speed. I did some comparison with BCs and ended up with these numbers

Average Cruiser speed: 178.94
Average Battlecruiser speed: 170.83

Thats a really small difference, hell the tornado is faster then every cruiser except stabber. If they are supposed to be able to tackle, speed tank or apply their lower DPS they need more speed.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-01-07 13:49:10 UTC
So, basically you're saying:

Remove the tier system.

Which, as per lots of threads recently and calls for it for a number of years now, most of the community agree that's the way to go.

P
rampro
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-07 13:52:06 UTC
they are fun and cheap , perfect for younger players.

speed buff would be excellent though

+1
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-01-07 13:53:27 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
So, basically you're saying:

Remove the tier system.

Which, as per lots of threads recently and calls for it for a number of years now, most of the community agree that's the way to go.

P


I've said no such thing, the tiers are within the class and BCs are not cruisers. But maybe its they way to go, especially for cruisers since the 4 within a race are very different and does not need tiers since they aren't direct upgrades to each other.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#5 - 2012-01-08 00:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Cruisers are fine. BCs are just better in pretty much every way. You'll find that BCs largely invalidate HACs, too.

I'd just nerf BC speed into the ground, make them closer to BS.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#6 - 2012-01-08 01:32:51 UTC
bc's could be a bit slower, i mean they're bigger, have more guns and more tank while still sporting cruiser class engines

i don't really care either way.

as for t1 cruisers, they are dirt cheap for what they provide. newb swarms in t1 frigates and t1 cruisers are awesome
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#7 - 2012-01-08 04:14:37 UTC
t1 cruisers can do a lot of dps.

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Never forget.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#8 - 2012-01-08 07:14:23 UTC
Currently, they are a stepping stone into BC and prerequisites for t2/t3 ships.

With a proper tiericide, they SHOULD be said stepping stone, but also weaker versions of the role-specific ships we see in t2, making them stepping stones into those ship classes as well. And not to mention, cheap pew pew. This is already the case in many hulls, but thanks to tiers, those hulls are useless and the roles are filled exclusively by expensive t2 ships.

Who doesn't want cheap pew? Cheap=more ppl doing it=more pew. Win for all.

Overhaul Dscan!
Raiz Nhell
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-08 07:24:58 UTC
BC's should go as fast as a cruiser...
I think the tier 3 BC are close to what they should be... cruiser speed, BS guns, wet paper tank...

And I loved my Moa... I thought it was the bomb... turned out it was a bomb, one I was riding in... :)

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-01-08 11:10:54 UTC
wait.
so what about the bs tier system?
does that work fine?
lets just break the game =p

every t1 cruiser has its role the fact that you choose another ship for that role doesnt mean they are useless.
cheap and fun to fly what more do you want from a ship?
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-01-08 13:12:52 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
I've said no such thing, the tiers are within the class and BCs are not cruisers. But maybe its they way to go, especially for cruisers since the 4 within a race are very different and does not need tiers since they aren't direct upgrades to each other.


You basically did when you said the main reason why the T1 cruiser line up isn't good is because of lack of slots, lack of HP and lack of PG/CPU.

Said lack of everything is mostly down to the tier system:

T1 cruisers lack said attributes, and in the case of at least half of them, their tier 3 variants perform a non bonused role better.
Same applies for the T1 frigates.

The tier system is also at work for boosting ships too much (making the appearance of the lack of attributes in other ships), in the case of the tier 2 BC's.

There's no real reason why the tier 2 BC's need to be downright better than their tier 1 counterparts, just different, alas CCP made them better as well as different, after all, the Tier 1 BC's are fairly well balanced against the cruiser line up.


In short, a removal of the tier system and a complete redesign of the ships via the role they're meant to do is the best way making sure the T1 Frigate and Crusier lineups get actually used.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-01-08 13:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Buzzmong wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
I've said no such thing, the tiers are within the class and BCs are not cruisers. But maybe its they way to go, especially for cruisers since the 4 within a race are very different and does not need tiers since they aren't direct upgrades to each other.


You basically did when you said the main reason why the T1 cruiser line up isn't good is because of lack of slots, lack of HP and lack of PG/CPU.

Said lack of everything is mostly down to the tier system:

T1 cruisers lack said attributes, and in the case of at least half of them, their tier 3 variants perform a non bonused role better.
Same applies for the T1 frigates.

The tier system is also at work for boosting ships too much (making the appearance of the lack of attributes in other ships), in the case of the tier 2 BC's.

There's no real reason why the tier 2 BC's need to be downright better than their tier 1 counterparts, just different, alas CCP made them better as well as different, after all, the Tier 1 BC's are fairly well balanced against the cruiser line up.


In short, a removal of the tier system and a complete redesign of the ships via the role they're meant to do is the best way making sure the T1 Frigate and Crusier lineups get actually used.


Well lets look at the tier 3 cruisers:
Rupture - Fits 425mm's, missile launchers, LSE and mwd, no problem here.
Thorax - Heavy neutron blasters and a mwd, no PG left for tank.
Moa - Fits 250mm rails, no PG left for mwd or tank.
Maller - Heavy pulse lasers and a ab, no PG left for mwd, tank or a neut/smartbomb in the extra high.

So should they need to fit smaller guns? They already have fewer hardpoints and this is the tier 3s, they should be able to fit properly.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-01-08 13:52:00 UTC
t1 cruiser frig ewar is not used so much other than ecm.
not even on recons. (td, painters, damps)
damps got nerfed to **** and the celestis should get 10% per lvl imo but thats just me...
same goes for t1 frigs i dont see how getting rid of the tier system will change them being used more.


minig frigs and cruisers are at the right place.
the logi t1 cruiser role is perfecly fine.

scanning frigs are fine.

fast tackle frigs are more than fine.

tier3 cruisers are freaking awesome.

to me the frig cruiser tier system is perfecly fine.

and you dont see them so much on field because people rather fly bc that use the same skills and have way more dps and tank.
but cost 3 times more (fitted and rigged).

I really dont see how getting rid of the tier system will make pilots fly t1 "crap" more.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-01-08 14:05:14 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:

Well lets look at the tier 3 cruisers:
Rupture - Fits 425mm's, missile launchers, LSE and mwd, no problem here.
Thorax - Heavy neutron blasters and a mwd, no PG left for tank.
Moa - Fits 250mm rails, no PG left for mwd or tank.
Maller - Heavy pulse lasers and a ab, no PG left for mwd, tank or a neut/smartbomb in the extra high.

So should they need to fit smaller guns? They already have fewer hardpoints and this is the tier 3s, they should be able to fit properly.

The Rupture is the only cruiser that can fit biggest guns and tank. This is purely due to easy fitting of ac's. Big gank should mean small tank and vice versa.

The talk about giving cruisers more slots to play with (some with the AF's on test server) is nothing more than the slot inflation that started with the introduction of tier2 bc's. It's not that the tier1/2 cruisers can't perform their intended roles due to lack of slots or boni but due to fiting. Give the tier1/2 cruisers the grid/CPU to actually fit combat modules so they can do their special roles.

Additionally, take a slot from drake/harby/cane, increase all BC mass by 40ish % (similar to dessies vs frigs) and increase ac fttings. If you want people to fly t1 cruisers, it should be possible to survive/escape encounters in them. BC speed vs. cruisers speed might need some tweaking, I dunno
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-01-08 14:07:59 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
I've said no such thing, the tiers are within the class and BCs are not cruisers. But maybe its they way to go, especially for cruisers since the 4 within a race are very different and does not need tiers since they aren't direct upgrades to each other.


You basically did when you said the main reason why the T1 cruiser line up isn't good is because of lack of slots, lack of HP and lack of PG/CPU.

Said lack of everything is mostly down to the tier system:

T1 cruisers lack said attributes, and in the case of at least half of them, their tier 3 variants perform a non bonused role better.
Same applies for the T1 frigates.

The tier system is also at work for boosting ships too much (making the appearance of the lack of attributes in other ships), in the case of the tier 2 BC's.

There's no real reason why the tier 2 BC's need to be downright better than their tier 1 counterparts, just different, alas CCP made them better as well as different, after all, the Tier 1 BC's are fairly well balanced against the cruiser line up.


In short, a removal of the tier system and a complete redesign of the ships via the role they're meant to do is the best way making sure the T1 Frigate and Crusier lineups get actually used.


Well lets look at the tier 3 cruisers:
Rupture - Fits 425mm's, missile launchers, LSE and mwd, no problem here.
Thorax - Heavy neutron blasters and a mwd, no PG left for tank.
Moa - Fits 250mm rails, no PG left for mwd or tank.
Maller - Heavy pulse lasers and a ab, no PG left for mwd, tank or a neut/smartbomb in the extra high.

So should they need to fit smaller guns? They already have fewer hardpoints and this is the tier 3s, they should be able to fit properly.



eft much???
did you actually get to fly the ships?
250mm rails on a moa?
why dont you fit 720 on a ruppie then? LOL

moa is freaking AWESOME there is nothing wrong with it!

maller has a sick tank giving it more fittings will make it overpowered.

both ships have no "real" turret bonus so you could just as well fit them with ACs.
which works really well btw.

thorax is a great ship.

and what the hell does that eft warrioring got to do with the tier system?
other than showing lack of knowlege and the fact that you do not fly the ships?
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-01-08 14:09:27 UTC
Biced wrote:


fast tackle frigs are more than fine.



to me the frig cruiser tier system is perfecly fine.


I really dont see how getting rid of the tier system will make pilots fly t1 "crap" more.


Ok, I don't think we're playing the same game because the T1 fast tackle frigates are nowhere near fine.

All four of them lack mids and the slasher and condor both only have one low making them even worse.
The rifter is a better fast tackle than the slasher, it can fit mwd, scram and web, + it have three lows where it could fit nanos or overdrives that would make it even faster than the slasher.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-01-08 14:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Biced wrote:

eft much???
did you actually get to fly the ships?
250mm rails on a moa?
why dont you fit 720 on a ruppie then? LOL

moa is freaking AWESOME there is nothing wrong with it!

maller has a sick tank giving it more fittings will make it overpowered.

both ships have no "real" turret bonus so you could just as well fit them with ACs.
which works really well btw.

thorax is a great ship.

and what the hell does that eft warrioring got to do with the tier system?
other than showing lack of knowlege and the fact that you do not fly the ships?


Yea I've flown most of the ships and they are ok, nothing great. This is the tier 3 models, they should be close to BCs on dps while lacking slots and tank in comparison.
This is how i would like to see the Thorax
[Thorax, New thorax]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

468 dps compared to the 617 of the popular hurricane. It also lacks neuts and tank but have a smaller sig radius.
Having good cruisers also gives the new AFs a role to fill =)

Edit: Or even better, compare it with the Brutix 655 dps in a similar fit.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-01-08 14:23:14 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Biced wrote:


fast tackle frigs are more than fine.



to me the frig cruiser tier system is perfecly fine.


I really dont see how getting rid of the tier system will make pilots fly t1 "crap" more.


Ok, I don't think we're playing the same game because the T1 fast tackle frigates are nowhere near fine.

All four of them lack mids and the slasher and condor both only have one low making them even worse.
The rifter is a better fast tackle than the slasher, it can fit mwd, scram and web, + it have three lows where it could fit nanos or overdrives that would make it even faster than the slasher.




the fast tackle frigs are more into getting point fast and keeping the target there till fleet arives but i guess you are right there.
rifter would do the job better than a slasher. guess they could use a role bonus like the ceptorst got.
so i guess i agree that the fast tackle t1 frigs are useless and the higher tier frigs can do thier role better.
and that is all you get from me mister! no more!
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-01-08 14:40:41 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Biced wrote:

eft much???
did you actually get to fly the ships?
250mm rails on a moa?
why dont you fit 720 on a ruppie then? LOL

moa is freaking AWESOME there is nothing wrong with it!

maller has a sick tank giving it more fittings will make it overpowered.

both ships have no "real" turret bonus so you could just as well fit them with ACs.
which works really well btw.

thorax is a great ship.

and what the hell does that eft warrioring got to do with the tier system?
other than showing lack of knowlege and the fact that you do not fly the ships?


Yea I've flown most of the ships and they are ok, nothing great. This is the tier 3 models, they should be close to BCs on dps while lacking slots and tank in comparison.
This is how i would like to see the Thorax
[Thorax, New thorax]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

468 dps compared to the 617 of the popular hurricane. It also lacks neuts and tank but have a smaller sig radius.
Having good cruisers also gives the new AFs a role to fill =)

Edit: Or even better, compare it with the Brutix 655 dps in a similar fit.


OMG what did you do to my lovely thorax???
shield brutix gets over 1kdps overheated.
silly troll fits lol.
anyways thorax is better plated.
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-08 14:40:58 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Biced wrote:

eft much???
did you actually get to fly the ships?
250mm rails on a moa?
why dont you fit 720 on a ruppie then? LOL

moa is freaking AWESOME there is nothing wrong with it!

maller has a sick tank giving it more fittings will make it overpowered.

both ships have no "real" turret bonus so you could just as well fit them with ACs.
which works really well btw.

thorax is a great ship.

and what the hell does that eft warrioring got to do with the tier system?
other than showing lack of knowlege and the fact that you do not fly the ships?


Yea I've flown most of the ships and they are ok, nothing great. This is the tier 3 models, they should be close to BCs on dps while lacking slots and tank in comparison.
This is how i would like to see the Thorax
[Thorax, New thorax]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

468 dps compared to the 617 of the popular hurricane. It also lacks neuts and tank but have a smaller sig radius.
Having good cruisers also gives the new AFs a role to fill =)

Edit: Or even better, compare it with the Brutix 655 dps in a similar fit.



That's one of the worst thorax fits I've ever seen, you should probably stop posting until you've actually flown a blaster boat without any sort of range control (or tackle)
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