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Quantifying Alpha Strike: A primer

Author
L'Petit Object
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-01-06 17:35:51 UTC
We need some actual Numbers.

One, the difference is NEVER 100 every 10 seconds vs. 10 every second.

It's more like 2600 every 10 seconds vs. 1800 every 6 seconds. Using such an extreme case as 100 every 10 and 10 every 1 makes all comparisons more extreme.

Waiting for your guns to fire is a huge thing. A myriad of things can happen before your guns fire. ECM of all kinds, targeting position. facing an unknown combatant who alphas me with artillery at their optimal, I can respond to that and receive no damage for longer while maneuvering into better position and revealing their other counters.

Waiting for the guns to fire gives the persons other mods time to cycle: shield boost, capacitor boost, neut, ecm. This means by the time you get to shoot again, they have eliminated your ability to do damage, or already healed the damage you would do.

Just because a particular strategy works against another particular strategy does not mean that either of the strategies are over or under powered. Ships which use high DPS need to fit themselves to take advantage of those properties.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#42 - 2012-01-06 17:46:57 UTC
L'Petit Object wrote:
We need some actual Numbers.

One, the difference is NEVER 100 every 10 seconds vs. 10 every second.

It's more like 2600 every 10 seconds vs. 1800 every 6 seconds. Using such an extreme case as 100 every 10 and 10 every 1 makes all comparisons more extreme.

Waiting for your guns to fire is a huge thing. A myriad of things can happen before your guns fire. ECM of all kinds, targeting position. facing an unknown combatant who alphas me with artillery at their optimal, I can respond to that and receive no damage for longer while maneuvering into better position and revealing their other counters.

Waiting for the guns to fire gives the persons other mods time to cycle: shield boost, capacitor boost, neut, ecm. This means by the time you get to shoot again, they have eliminated your ability to do damage, or already healed the damage you would do.

Just because a particular strategy works against another particular strategy does not mean that either of the strategies are over or under powered. Ships which use high DPS need to fit themselves to take advantage of those properties.


Yes, there are downsides to both high-alpha and low-alpha guns, and they are each good for different situations, and different pilots can take advantage of the guns differently. Ultimately EFT warrioring and throwing numbers around gets rather futile, since in the heat of the moment that all goes up in massive spectacular explosions.

The amounts Kahega and I used were token amounts meant to exemplify the differences. The overall equation you can use to compare "effective DPS" with EFT DPS is:

Effective_DPS = EFT_DPS + Alpha / Duration_of_Fight

Of course, this is all assuming tracking, range, sig radius, and other things are all ignored.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

CrassusRex
Nesilec Inc.
#43 - 2012-01-06 19:21:32 UTC
I will take it upon myself to create such a graph for damage, but since I do not fly anything minmatar, can someone post an arty fit and autocannon fit with around the same budget for the graph
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-01-06 20:04:42 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Dan Osiris wrote:
looks great on paper. if an artillery shot misses however, the damage per ten seconds - assuming it takes 10 seconds each shot - is already halved, and thats also assuming that the next shot hits.
while if an A/C misses, and assuming it takes one shot each second, it is only losing 10% of its of the damage per 10 seconds each time it misses.

by this logic, i think acs are the better choice in prolonged fights because a/cs have more chances to hit.

by this logic if you have 10% chance to hit and you hit target with the first volley , you are far better of with the arty

The other issue is that people take time to react to things like tracking problems.
If, say, I'm in a fleet, and I fire my arty at the primary, and miss, odds are it's already dead before my next shot.
With an AC, I miss my first shot, then either start moving to reduce transversal, or start shooting the secondary. The 10 or 15 seconds you're waiting between shots on artillery is much more than the time it takes to react to tracking problems, not even looking at actual tracking amounts.
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#45 - 2012-01-07 18:05:50 UTC
Shocked


I cant believe the thought logic behind the OP............

Duder, its not about damage over time or some ******** equation like that.

Its clearly raw damage output placed upon a single target. This allows for the negation of logistics. If a logistics team is encountering a non alpha hostile group, they will be able to rep. If the logistics team encounters an alpha strike hostile group, they stand no chance in hell in getting reps in if the friendly they are trying to rep is dead or low structure. A lot of alpha teams do carry ancillary damage to assist in the destruction of a ship that did not completely die. Lasers are a good production of this asset as are missiles..


Alpha is raw damage output when used in fleet fights. Not damage over time in a 1 v1 scenario. You will never encounter a 1 vs 1 artillery vs short range.


Logically speaking......
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-01-07 22:07:18 UTC
It's not free DPS, it's just that instead of taking 10 shots to destroy the last 100 HP (Therefore taking 10 seconds), the 1 shot will destroy it instantly (Therefore taking "1 second"), but what you miss is after the 1 shot destroyed the first target he now has to wait 10 secs for his gun to cycle before he can shoot the next target, while the first guy can do it in only 1 second. So you see they both balance out

You logic is flawed, but I fixed it
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#47 - 2012-01-07 22:09:46 UTC
Quote:
It's not free DPS, it's just that instead of taking 10 shots to destroy the last 100 HP (Therefore taking 10 seconds), the 1 shot will destroy it instantly (Therefore taking "1 second"), but what you miss is after the 1 shot destroyed the first target he now has to wait 10 secs for his gun to cycle before he can shoot the next target, while the first guy can do it in only 1 second. So you see they both balance out


Only the damage applied at the start is free. That was my point.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
#48 - 2012-01-08 07:22:25 UTC

Totally ungrouping or having 2-3 groups helps the overkill quite a bit.
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