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Why should ccp nerf incursions?

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#101 - 2012-01-09 21:01:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
IMO, hisec incursions provide too much reward for their risk when compared to most lowsec/nullsec opportunities. They essentially break the risk vs reward paradigm that encourages players to venture into lowsec and nullsec for "bigger" rewards.

However, I also believe they provide an extremely beneficial service to EvE by creating an environment for teamwork. And lets be frank, learning to play in a team is pretty much at the core of living in lowsec and nullsec. And I fully support game mechanics that enourage teamplay, meaning there should be definite advantages and rewards for doing so.

Its really the entire reward system, and not just hisec incursions, that needs tweaking. The system should reward people for:

1.) Dynamic Risks (based on the likelyhood of losing your ship/pod to NPC's and/or Players).
2.) Investment Risks (be it raw isk, time, and/or structures in space).
3.) Social Risks (reward working as a group, especially if violating the social trust results in losses).

Most of the time, the Risks from NPCs are much less than the risks from players, and this needs to be heavily accounted for.
On the surface, our system attempts the above, but has enough skewed areas to throw the current system out of balance!


Lets also be frank:
Nullsec Belt Ratting and Anomalies are too-often solo activities in which most of the risks involved can be signficantly reduced.
There is an inherent Investment and Social Risk to living in Nullsec; living there requires a constant vigilance to avoid losses.

* hit post without fully editing my list.... *

If I were to rank PvE activities by risk:
1.) C5-6 WH combat sites.
2.) Nullsec Plexes
3.) Nullsec/Lowsec Incursions
4.) C4-3 WH Combat sites.
5.) Lowsec Plexes/anomalies
6.) Lowsec Mining
7.) Hisec Incursions
8.) Hisec Mining
9.) Nullsec Belts/anomalies
10.) Nullsec Mining
11.) Hisec Mission Running

I'm not sure where to put nullsec or lowsec Missioning... and I'll also admit the risks in running plexes and incursion varies SIGNFICANTLY with the plex/site, as well with how much space and friends you have.


This list is probably too subjective... meaning this is how risky I perceive the behavior, although it occurs to me that the riskiness of the behavior is heavily colored by my ability to mitigate the risks involved. For example, in WH space, the lack of local and randomness of WH's makes mitigation more difficult, whereas the omniscient local of nullsec allows a pilot to avoid the riskier situations (neuts in lcoal) and only PvE in situations where most of the Risks have been mitigated.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2012-01-09 21:15:12 UTC
Dear CCP

We have observed that there are many people in eve who play the game not in the way that we intend it to be played. They are doing all sorts of weird and oddball things that surely you cannot have intended. Accordingly we demand that you fix this inequitable situation and return to us the god given right to rule the universe and continue to direct the activities of others. Should you fail to do this we will moan and whine, for eternity, in the forums ... and try to provide an impression that this matter really is important and that we actually care about the overall population of gamers that call eve home.

The heinous crimes that these players are committing include the following:
1. They are spending much of their eve life in hisec. Some of them are under the false impression that eve is a multi-dimensional sandbox and that they can choose to do things that are not moar, rawr, mwahaha, piwatical PvP. This is just plain wrong and an affront to us all. It needs to be fixed, and now.
2. They are running incursions efficiently in groups and making isk from it. God forbid, we even have reports that some thousands of them are enjoying it. We cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.
3. They are not bringing enough pimped-out targets into lowsec and nullsec for us to pad our killboards in the manner we'd like to become accustomed. We are not satisfied fighting one another in the depths of low/null, that can be just too much hard work, so we need you to nerf every hisec isk faucet to force those prey-ships back where they belong ... uncomfortably out of hisec. We are also not willing to get our own fat asses out to hisec and gank / wardec the bears that live there, so we again need you, CCP, to fix this and force them all our way.
4. Some of our guys are even surreptitiously doing hisec stuff via alts, especially those accursed incursions, and are not always available when we demand they attend illustrious and meaningful CTA calls. Of course this is a new thing, and the fault of incursions, and no self-respecting PvPer ever had alts in the past to run hisec lvl4 missions. It is unacceptable that our guys choose to go to hisec to make some isk, and it's entirely unacceptable to suggest that we should be sharing / distributing our moon goo and other proceeds to those people.
5. They are daring to claim that hisec activities involve risks, in stark contrariness to our own universe-ruling uber-views.

CCP, you need to fix this ... for otherwise we can moan and whine forevermore. It is just criminal that there are people in eve choosing to play in a way that we do not agree with or approve of ... FIX IT!!!!

Your concerned stakeholders.



I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#103 - 2012-01-10 09:36:24 UTC
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#104 - 2012-01-10 14:31:13 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Dear CCP

We have observed that there are many people in eve who play the game not in the way that we intend it to be played. They are doing all sorts of weird and oddball things that surely you cannot have intended. Accordingly we demand that you fix this inequitable situation and return to us the god given right to rule the universe and continue to direct the activities of others. Should you fail to do this we will moan and whine, for eternity, in the forums ... and try to provide an impression that this matter really is important and that we actually care about the overall population of gamers that call eve home.

The heinous crimes that these players are committing include the following:
1. They are spending much of their eve life in hisec. Some of them are under the false impression that eve is a multi-dimensional sandbox and that they can choose to do things that are not moar, rawr, mwahaha, piwatical PvP. This is just plain wrong and an affront to us all. It needs to be fixed, and now.
2. They are running incursions efficiently in groups and making isk from it. God forbid, we even have reports that some thousands of them are enjoying it. We cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.
3. They are not bringing enough pimped-out targets into lowsec and nullsec for us to pad our killboards in the manner we'd like to become accustomed. We are not satisfied fighting one another in the depths of low/null, that can be just too much hard work, so we need you to nerf every hisec isk faucet to force those prey-ships back where they belong ... uncomfortably out of hisec. We are also not willing to get our own fat asses out to hisec and gank / wardec the bears that live there, so we again need you, CCP, to fix this and force them all our way.
4. Some of our guys are even surreptitiously doing hisec stuff via alts, especially those accursed incursions, and are not always available when we demand they attend illustrious and meaningful CTA calls. Of course this is a new thing, and the fault of incursions, and no self-respecting PvPer ever had alts in the past to run hisec lvl4 missions. It is unacceptable that our guys choose to go to hisec to make some isk, and it's entirely unacceptable to suggest that we should be sharing / distributing our moon goo and other proceeds to those people.
5. They are daring to claim that hisec activities involve risks, in stark contrariness to our own universe-ruling uber-views.

CCP, you need to fix this ... for otherwise we can moan and whine forevermore. It is just criminal that there are people in eve choosing to play in a way that we do not agree with or approve of ... FIX IT!!!!

Your concerned stakeholders.





Why exactly did you waste time posting this?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#105 - 2012-01-10 17:12:38 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
The heinous crimes that these players are committing include the following:
1. They are spending much of their eve life in hisec. Some of them are under the false impression that eve is a multi-dimensional sandbox and that they can choose to do things that are not moar, rawr, mwahaha, piwatical PvP. This is just plain wrong and an affront to us all. It needs to be fixed, and now.
2. They are running incursions efficiently in groups and making isk from it. God forbid, we even have reports that some thousands of them are enjoying it. We cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.
3. They are not bringing enough pimped-out targets into lowsec and nullsec for us to pad our killboards in the manner we'd like to become accustomed. We are not satisfied fighting one another in the depths of low/null, that can be just too much hard work, so we need you to nerf every hisec isk faucet to force those prey-ships back where they belong ... uncomfortably out of hisec. We are also not willing to get our own fat asses out to hisec and gank / wardec the bears that live there, so we again need you, CCP, to fix this and force them all our way.
4. Some of our guys are even surreptitiously doing hisec stuff via alts, especially those accursed incursions, and are not always available when we demand they attend illustrious and meaningful CTA calls. Of course this is a new thing, and the fault of incursions, and no self-respecting PvPer ever had alts in the past to run hisec lvl4 missions. It is unacceptable that our guys choose to go to hisec to make some isk, and it's entirely unacceptable to suggest that we should be sharing / distributing our moon goo and other proceeds to those people.
5. They are daring to claim that hisec activities involve risks, in stark contrariness to our own universe-ruling uber-views.

CCP, you need to fix this ... for otherwise we can moan and whine forevermore. It is just criminal that there are people in eve choosing to play in a way that we do not agree with or approve of ... FIX IT!!!!

1) Let's be honest, even if VGs got nerf batted down to the equivalent of ratting in jita carebears woulds still not leave high sec.
2) Given how easy it is to get into a fleet filled with people you don't know, and still run sites efficiently, it isn't that much different from solo work. Except for the fact that you can single box it and still earn as much as someone hunting for exploration sites or C3s.
3) Why do people always bring this up? The people who live in perpetual fear of low will never fly those ships into low/null sec, whether there are incursions or not. That is not the issue.
4) umadbro?
5) Incursions are so dangerous, after all Lol Someone single boxing them should definitely get equal ISK rewards to people in pimped T3s dual boxing in w-space or low sec.

Anyway, tbh I'm not too bothered about incursions isk/hour. I just think they should increase risk to match it. The decent fleets will mitigate the risk (in the form of, say, random NPC spawns, and the slightly worse fleets will at least become a little less dull.

I ran incursions for a while before returning to whs and low sec sites, and my main gripe with them is just that running them for more than a few hours makes you want to **** dip a blender. Hell, in most fleets the FC doesn't even say anything, the things are so damn easy an entire fleet can do them in silence or whilst chatting about entirely unrelated stuff.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#106 - 2012-01-10 19:10:43 UTC
Simi, you just got trolled hardcore.

He was being sarcastic. Thinks hes clever or some silliness.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#107 - 2012-01-10 19:12:55 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Simi, you just got trolled hardcore.

He was being sarcastic. Thinks hes clever or some silliness.

fffffffffffffffffffffffu.

That'll teach me for just reading the last page of a thread. Lol

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#108 - 2012-01-10 20:17:20 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
They are running incursions efficiently in groups and making isk from it. God forbid, we even have reports that some thousands of them are enjoying it. We cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.


I *tried* to do something about it. The incursionbears whined and cried and we got nerfed. What's that? Someone was doing something they didn't like and instead of dealing with the problem (which they easily could have done) they just made noise until CCP fixed it? And you accuse OTHERS of doing that?

Substantia Nigra wrote:
They are daring to claim that hisec activities involve risks, in stark contrariness to our own universe-ruling uber-views.

Are you people still seriously claiming there is real risk in incursions? Aside from efforts at griefing, the only risk you face is stupidity among your own fleet.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#109 - 2012-01-10 22:00:58 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:

Are you people still seriously claiming there is real risk in incursions? Aside from efforts at griefing, the only risk you face is stupidity among your own fleet.


Yeah man, what if your FC is drunk and welps the fleet?

I for one, think CCP should balance pvp around this as well. If we can prove that our FC was drunk at the helm, CCP should provide full reimbursement for the fleet in the event of a welp. Its only proper game balance.
Latvinia
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#110 - 2012-01-10 22:12:05 UTC
The OP is actually correct, but I doubt many will make the effort to try what he says.

First off, Incursions were the cornerstone of a major EvE expansion. They were designed to bring people together, and are working. If you think CCP is going to massively nerf them, you're delusional. Sure there can (and will) be tweaks, but don't expect huge changes.

CCP has long stated that PvP is far more than targeting someone and pressing f1 - f8. Anytime people are competing for resources, PvP is occuring. While Highsec incursions don't have the same risk as Losec or Null incursions, they have far more competition. Using that argument, assaults and headquarters need a buff to foster more competition.

By CCP's own numbers, more ships are lost in highsec than any other region. You are not immune there, there are just consequences. Removing incursions from highsec, or massively nerfing them will never 'force' people into losec. It will just mean less people will run them - and how do you think CCP will see that? As a good thing? The only thing that will make a person go to losec or null, is themself. If/when they want to go, they will.

For those whining about isk, learn how to trade if you want to make isk. Eve has the largest/most robust market of any MMO for a reason, learn how to use it. You might not like it, but inflation is just another form of competition. If inflation causes you to fly cheaper ships or use less effective weapons, will I guess you just lost.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#111 - 2012-01-10 23:02:15 UTC
Latvinia wrote:
The OP is actually correct, but I doubt many will make the effort to try what he says.

First off, Incursions were the cornerstone of a major EvE expansion. They were designed to bring people together, and are working. If you think CCP is going to massively nerf them, you're delusional. Sure there can (and will) be tweaks, but don't expect huge changes.

As stated above, not many people want them to be nerfed into the ground. Personally I'd actually be happy with the isk/hour remaining about the same for the very, very good fleets.

What is annoying however is the risk/reward ratio, which is a little screwed. For example at the moment in order to compete with a single player running incursions, in terms of isk/hour, a player in whs would have to be flying a pretty pimped T3 and dual boxing in order to salvage on his alt.

On top of that finding a decent WH, or any low/null exploration site, requires an extremely large amount of time. Incursion runners do not need to learn to scan, or any other associated skill beyond warping straight to the site which respawns in the same system over and over.

Latvinia wrote:
CCP has long stated that PvP is far more than targeting someone and pressing f1 - f8. Anytime people are competing for resources, PvP is occuring. While Highsec incursions don't have the same risk as Losec or Null incursions, they have far more competition. Using that argument, assaults and headquarters need a buff to foster more competition.

Using that argument the rated plexs need to spawn twice as often so people stop taking them from me when I'm half way through them.

Latvinia wrote:
By CCP's own numbers, more ships are lost in highsec than any other region.

Quickly glancing at the solar map, two of the most dangerous high sec systems at the moment? Amarr and Jita, I'm fairly sure people aren't running incursions in them. In fact when looking at ships destroyed in the last 24 hours there seems to be no real difference between incursion systems and the surrounding high sec.

Latvinia wrote:
You are not immune there, there are just consequences. Removing incursions from highsec, or massively nerfing them will never 'force' people into losec. It will just mean less people will run them - and how do you think CCP will see that? As a good thing? The only thing that will make a person go to losec or null, is themself. If/when they want to go, they will.

We don't want to force people into low sec, most wouldn't come anyway. Those incursion runners that would come back are in all likelihood alts, that just run incursions atm because it's by far the best ISK in the game for the lowest risk.

What we do want is a return to the principles on which Eve began: nullsec > lowsec > highsec.

Latvinia wrote:
For those whining about isk, learn how to trade if you want to make isk. Eve has the largest/most robust market of any MMO for a reason, learn how to use it. You might not like it, but inflation is just another form of competition. If inflation causes you to fly cheaper ships or use less effective weapons, will I guess you just lost.

This also comes up a lot, and I find it a little arrogant. You may run incursions, but you are still very likely not one of Eve's elite in terms of personal assets. Nor am I, but at a wild guess I would say I have considerably greater wealth than the average incursion runner, yet I still want them nerfed.

I don't particularly care if the additional risk comes from less predictable and more difficult NPC spawns, or with a reintroduction of some kind of griefer mechanics, but they need to be looked at.

As for your "players could nerf them themselves" comment. Try getting together 40+ players who don't particularly enjoy incursions, can't enter high sec or have a 50 jump journey to make to join you... then remember that they probably don't have incursion ships anyway.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Latvinia
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#112 - 2012-01-11 00:01:56 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

What is annoying however is the risk/reward ratio, which is a little screwed. For example at the moment in order to compete with a single player running incursions, in terms of isk/hour, a player in whs would have to be flying a pretty pimped T3 and dual boxing in order to salvage on his alt.


I guess my alt and 5 others making 7 billion in a cl 5 wh didn't just happen (6 hours total time), incursions compete with that how?

Simi Kusoni wrote:

Quickly glancing at the solar map, two of the most dangerous high sec systems at the moment? Amarr and Jita, I'm fairly sure people aren't running incursions in them. In fact when looking at ships destroyed in the last 24 hours there seems to be no real difference between incursion systems and the surrounding high sec.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902

Simi Kusoni wrote:

We don't want to force people into low sec, most wouldn't come anyway. Those incursion runners that would come back are in all likelihood alts, that just run incursions atm because it's by far the best ISK in the game for the lowest risk.


The best isk in the game for the lowest risk is trading, try it. And isk per risk has never been balanced in this game, you make far more isk for a lot less risk in alliance 0.0 when compared to losec. Does that need to be nerfed?

Simi Kusoni wrote:

What we do want is a return to the principles on which Eve began: nullsec > lowsec > highsec.


Have never read anything that CCP thinks that, pretty sure CCP has always considered losec as a transition area between highsec and null. Besides just looking at incursions, you make far more isk in 0.0 and losec than you do in highsec. While you have less risk in highsec, you have far more competition, thus it's still PvP in CCP's eyes.

Simi Kusoni wrote:

This also comes up a lot, and I find it a little arrogant. You may run incursions, but you are still very likely not one of Eve's elite in terms of personal assets. Nor am I, but at a wild guess I would say I have considerably greater wealth than the average incursion runner, yet I still want them nerfed.


Actually if you haven't guessed, I'm a trade alt. I have alts in 0.0 and alts that sometimes run incursions. I actually believe Vanguards need their rewards tweaked down a bit, while assaults and headquarters should be buffed a bit. But CCP will monitor it and do what they think is best for the game. As far as being one of the game's elite, I'm probably not, but I am comfortable, and am not worried in the least bit about incursion's imaginary inflation effect.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#113 - 2012-01-11 01:42:22 UTC
Latvinia wrote:
I guess my alt and 5 others making 7 billion in a cl 5 wh didn't just happen (6 hours total time), incursions compete with that how?

Maybe the fact that you were risking your ships? Roll Even assuming your were all just gas harvesting in cheap fit BCs, given the fact that you found a c5 (or have made the effort to move into one), scouted it out, then risked those cheap ass ships in my eyes entitles you to that ~190m per hour you each made. (I think 190m is right, my maths always was terrible).

Latvinia wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902

Erm, that's a nice link that has nothing to do with my point?

Latvinia wrote:
The best isk in the game for the lowest risk is trading, try it. And isk per risk has never been balanced in this game, you make far more isk for a lot less risk in alliance 0.0 when compared to losec. Does that need to be nerfed?

Sigh, I don't need to try it, I have ISK. As for alliance 0.0, try taking some sov yourself and see how you do. Because defending your space is completely risk and hassle free of course.

Latvinia wrote:
Have never read anything that CCP thinks that, pretty sure CCP has always considered losec as a transition area between highsec and null. Besides just looking at incursions, you make far more isk in 0.0 and losec than you do in highsec. While you have less risk in highsec, you have far more competition, thus it's still PvP in CCP's eyes.

Thought I'd highlight the important part there.

How about missions? You make more running them in highsec ri.... oh wait, no. What about plexing? oh.... no. Wait, WORMHOLES! All the best ones appear in... oh wait, nope, still low/null.

When it comes to isk/hour incursions are the exception to the rule. They compete with lowsec, whs and null on sheer isk generation yet take no risk or skill to run. Throughout the history of Eve everything has always been the other way round, from bounties to the quality of rated sites it has always been null > lowsec > high.

CCP may have attempted some kind of balance with the tiny disparity between high and low sec incursion pay outs, but they misjudged the difficulty of vanguard sites. A decent fleet now can run them in <3 minutes, for something that requires no scanning, no scouting and no skill beyond a basic understanding of tags/broadcasts.

Latvinia wrote:
Actually if you haven't guessed, I'm a trade alt. I have alts in 0.0 and alts that sometimes run incursions. I actually believe Vanguards need their rewards tweaked down a bit, while assaults and headquarters should be buffed a bit. But CCP will monitor it and do what they think is best for the game. As far as being one of the game's elite, I'm probably not, but I am comfortable, and am not worried in the least bit about incursion's imaginary inflation effect.

Tbh in that case we probably more or less agree. Although if you bring AS and HQ sites in line with VGs there will be even less competition, since fleets will be spread out across all of them. I still agree with the extremely shiny skilled fleets getting a large amount of ISK, but let's be honest, their fleets aren't that shiny and it doesn't really take much skill. Hell, my WH tengu costs more than most of the ships I see running incursions.

Anyway, I think the main issue with incursions is the way they are being farmed. It messes up competition

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#114 - 2012-01-11 01:50:50 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
When you already have power yourself to go and do so.

So instead of playing forumpirate, push the undock button, get a fleet of 40 and go kill the mom. Do this three times/week and voila you have just nerfed high-sec incusrion income by 75%.

With the complainers together you should easily be able to get such a fleet. Or pay some other to do it for you.

Incursion are nerfable by players, now do so instead of complaining about fixing someone that isn't broken.


Because its the job of CCP to keep the eve economy health, not players.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2012-01-11 02:37:15 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
... we cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.


Michael Harari wrote:


Sjugar wrote:

Incursion are nerfable by players, now do so instead of complaining about fixing someone that isn't broken.


Because its the job of CCP to keep the eve economy health, not players.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#116 - 2012-01-11 16:52:59 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
... we cannot stymie or control this isk flow without getting off our fat-asses so we need you, CCP, to fix this problem for us.


Michael Harari wrote:


Sjugar wrote:

Incursion are nerfable by players, now do so instead of complaining about fixing someone that isn't broken.


Because its the job of CCP to keep the eve economy health, not players.


That sounds like a REALLY good argument for nerfing moon goo.
Oh and what the goons are doing to isotope prices, nerf that too.
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#117 - 2012-01-11 17:56:47 UTC
I lost 1 billion dollar ship. That tells me that there is no risk and that your're never risking your ship.

Vangaurds are easy, but there is a Cost to get into vangaurds, a cost when running them (contesting sites, finding fleets, fleets disbandoning all the time). I believe they should make vanguards a bit more challenging and harder to run creating a higher risk. But other than that the income fine, LP i dunno .
Latvinia
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#118 - 2012-01-11 23:29:28 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

When it comes to isk/hour incursions are the exception to the rule. They compete with lowsec, whs and null on sheer isk generation yet take no risk or skill to run. Throughout the history of Eve everything has always been the other way round, from bounties to the quality of rated sites it has always been null > lowsec > high.


Actually they're not, you make 43% more running the same incursion sites in losec/null than in highsec. More danger, less competition. Incursions follow the rule too.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#119 - 2012-01-12 00:22:11 UTC
BearJews wrote:
I lost 1 billion dollar ship. That tells me that there is no risk and that your're never risking your ship.

Vangaurds are easy, but there is a Cost to get into vangaurds, a cost when running them (contesting sites, finding fleets, fleets disbandoning all the time). I believe they should make vanguards a bit more challenging and harder to run creating a higher risk. But other than that the income fine, LP i dunno .

I can assure you that the time taken to find a fleet, the time spent disbanding and arguing over who is FCing etc. is nothing in comparison to the time it takes to find a good combat site or wormhole. A contesting fleet is also considerably less of a nuisance than, say, a sleipnir warping in behind you and trying to kill you in the 6/10 you've just spent 20 minutes clearing.

Latvinia wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

When it comes to isk/hour incursions are the exception to the rule. They compete with lowsec, whs and null on sheer isk generation yet take no risk or skill to run. Throughout the history of Eve everything has always been the other way round, from bounties to the quality of rated sites it has always been null > lowsec > high.


Actually they're not, you make 43% more running the same incursion sites in losec/null than in highsec. More danger, less competition. Incursions follow the rule too.

As I said before, in the part of my post you neatly cut off, CCP tried to balance incursions around that ideal and failed. They badly misjudged the ease with which VGs can be blitzed.

You also cannot compare HS incursions to LS or null purely on payout, due to the logistics of getting the ships there to run them. They also differ to wormholes or complexes in that they can be found easily on the map through the journal and do not require any scanning to find the sites, again this not only reduces the skill required to run them but greatly benefits pirates if you're going to try and run them in low/null.

The reality is that whilst you could go to a low sec system and run some incursions, gate camps, people trying to kill you and the fact that you aren't going to be in a comparable fleet to those running HS incursions eventually brings your isk/hour below that of HS sites.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2012-01-12 02:58:06 UTC
Hey look, someone seems to be doing something with their anti-incursion fervour. Like, I mean, more than just moaning and wailing - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55792

My money is on little more than bigtalk and lots of back-slapping "Go, bro, go!", but still at least he's trying to do **something** other than these bleatfests.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.