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Getting "killed" in EVE

Author
Grakulus Silmaril
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-05 19:44:45 UTC
In most MMOs death at the hands of PVP or PVE dosn't have many terrible consequences. For example in WoW and many others a death means some damage to my equipment and a wee delay before I can get back into the game.I havn't been blown to smithereens yet in EVE as I'm just starting out with all the intro agent missions but clearly it's going to happen - lots.

As far as I can tell, death in EVE means losing that ship and all it's modules and other fittings so how does the game reconcile this with what I assume is the long-term hunt for the best gear. Is all gear available to all players at all times (for a cost)? If I end up with an uber ship, and the skills to fly and fit it, how would I afford to re-purchase and re-fit it every time I was blown up in PVP? Is it down to simply making huge sums of money alongside the PVP side of the game so as to be able to constantly re-purchase?
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-01-05 20:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Grakulus Silmaril wrote:
In most MMOs death at the hands of PVP or PVE dosn't have many terrible consequences. For example in WoW and many others a death means some damage to my equipment and a wee delay before I can get back into the game.I havn't been blown to smithereens yet in EVE as I'm just starting out with all the intro agent missions but clearly it's going to happen - lots.

As far as I can tell, death in EVE means losing that ship and all it's modules and other fittings so how does the game reconcile this with what I assume is the long-term hunt for the best gear. Is all gear available to all players at all times (for a cost)? If I end up with an uber ship, and the skills to fly and fit it, how would I afford to re-purchase and re-fit it every time I was blown up in PVP? Is it down to simply making huge sums of money alongside the PVP side of the game so as to be able to constantly re-purchase?


Yes.

If your ship gets blown up, it gets blown up. Leaves a wreck and maybe some modules to loot. Buy new ship. Or use the free noobship you have infinite supply of... Granted, you do get an ISK payment from Pend Insurance that covers part of the loss (percentage of the base cost of the hull, but modules are not a factor. You can improve this percentage by buying insurance coverage - useful if you know you are flying your ship into a situation where it may get popped).

If your pod gets blown up (NPCs do not blow up pods but players usually do if they can catch you) you also get to re-buy a clone and re-buy any implants you had on your clone.

Death stings. Death has a meaning. Don't die. Don't fly a ship you cannot afford to replace. The first big hurdle in your EVE career is to understand this and get over it. You can't just "try and see what happens" unless you are flying something eminently expendable. Early on you should always fly something expendable.

There are plenty of affordable ships to fly in EVE. Stuff that you can replace with an evening of play even as a newbie. Do not get an uber-ship until you have enough excess ISK to buy 1-2 more just like that.

As an example, I currently do some carebearing on the side in a Tengu that costs about 900 million ISK to replace. I know I may lose it at any time due to personal fail (or suicide gank). However, I fly it because I have immediate ISK reserves to replace it. Four times.

Still makes me nervous to use the JF I have on my other account - that ship is 6 billion ISK to replace - I couldn't do it immediately should something unhappy happen to it. Only reason why it is an acceptable risk is because Jump Freighters, flown responsibly, are nearly unkillable and importantly, I use it for tasks that no other ship can do and it generates me ISK while doing so. ISK put at (minor) risk to generate more ISK. I consider the risk acceptable, even if a total loss would really really hurt.

EVE is not about hunting the best gear for your ship

EVE is about training and accumulating a set of tools for the job. You should not get a 5% better tool if it costs 10x as much if you cannot afford it (yet). Level 4 missions can be done in a battleship that costs 100 million ISK. Or they can be done in a super-pimped 2 billion ISK pwnmobile full of "purples" (expensive faction mods). The expensive version, while doing the missions faster, is nowhere near as much better as the price tag would imply.

The whole concept of "best gear" doesn't really exist in EVE. Only ships that really get pimped with heavy duty bling-bling are supercapitals and by the time you are worrying about something like that, you'll understand how EVE works. (Supercapitals are also the reason why some modules are so expensive - when you are fitting a 70-80 billion ISK Titan, dropping few more billion for couple of rare officer modules is chump change that is fairly irrelevant at that point...)

Don't worry so much about 1% or 5% better shiny things. Worry if your ship can do the job you plan on doing with it. If it can, its fine. If it can do it while saving 20 mil on the fitting, even better - not as much on the line if something goes wrong.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2012-01-05 20:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
"Don't fly a what you can't afford to lose"

A phrase you'll likely hear often from people if you ever whine about having lost something you can't afford to have lost.

If you're smart though you can live with it as you'll lose ships so rarely....but on the other hand you live with the risk of potentially not being able to afford a loss.

Don't of this like any other FPS game that you can just respawn from, treat it more like World of Tanks in that when you pop, you're out for the match.

The Drake is a Lie

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-01-05 20:21:01 UTC
Xercodo wrote:

Don't of this like any other FPS game that you can just respawn from, treat it more like World of Tanks in that when you pop, you're out for the match.


It is like World of Tanks, except that you get to visit a tank factory for a replacement... Lol
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-05 20:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
One thing of note as well; In EVE active and skillfull (RL skill, not skillpoints) are always valuable and once you figure out the basics and get enough skillpoints to fly low tier ships competently, it is perfectly possible to find a PvP corp that is actually happy to replace your ship losses as long as you fly with the corp and do stuff for them.

Early on the ships you are even able to fly are so cheap that I older players could dump you a pile of 50 ships + fittings without blinking an eye. So finding a good corporation that is willing to help you and support you is very much recommended if you want to PvP a lot.

Most of those big fleet battles you may have heard of are also done pretty much on alliance/corporation level ship replacement programs, paid out of corp/alliance level income streams. So when 100 battleships go up in smoke, those pilots just fill a request and the logistics side of their alliance either gives them a new ship or transfer them the ISK to get a replacement. No need to PvE to cover the losses of large fleet engagements.

Should such an alliance be unable to pay for such replacements, they usually then cannot afford to wage large scale war (or they have to settle for pilots who are happy to pay their own losses).
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#6 - 2012-01-05 23:07:33 UTC
Grakulus Silmaril wrote:

As far as I can tell, death in EVE means losing that ship and all it's modules and other fittings so how does the game reconcile this with what I assume is the long-term hunt for the best gear. Is all gear available to all players at all times (for a cost)? If I end up with an uber ship, and the skills to fly and fit it, how would I afford to re-purchase and re-fit it every time I was blown up in PVP? Is it down to simply making huge sums of money alongside the PVP side of the game so as to be able to constantly re-purchase?


Most players that PvP will have some source of sustainable income to help offset the loss of ships. They generally pay very close attention to the cost/effectiveness ratio when picking the ships and modules that are used, which is why you'll see a lot of Drakes and Hurricanes flown in PvP since they are at a pretty good sweet spot for most players. Really expensive ships are fairly rare and are often flown by people that are either very good at pvp/staying alive, too oblivious to know better, or have a ton of disposable income.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#7 - 2012-01-05 23:08:09 UTC
Eve is more about skill progression than 'item' or 'module/ship' progression. When I say 'skill' I mean skill in terms of tactical skill as much if not more than skill points.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2012-01-06 00:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Unlike other games, everything in EVE can be purchased from the market or contracts, so all items are replaceable.

Ships are disposable tools, so don't get attached to them!

You don't have to run an instance a zillion times until an ultra rare bind-on-pickup item drops. Just visit the EVE market or browse contracts to purchase whatever you want.

Ship insurance can help take the sting out of ship losses.
gfldex
#9 - 2012-01-06 02:01:42 UTC
Grakulus Silmaril wrote:
Is all gear available to all players at all times (for a cost)?


No. There are a few ship and items that where won in events. That stuff never leaves hangars. (There is one player with balls of steel who used a super rare ship in the alliance tournament - and lost it. Tyrrax Thorrk we salute you.)

Grakulus Silmaril wrote:

If I end up with an uber ship,


Statistically your chances of ever doing so are very very slim.

Grakulus Silmaril wrote:

and the skills to fly and fit it, how would I afford to re-purchase and re-fit it every time I was blown up in PVP?


You gain ISK, you lose it. ISK has very little value beside being easy to transport. You don't have to build up a pension or get your kids proper education. If you really run out of ISK and got no means to make any, you drop back into an NPC corp and run missions for a week.

Grakulus Silmaril wrote:

Is it down to simply making huge sums of money alongside the PVP side of the game so as to be able to constantly re-purchase?


Very few players stay long enough with the game to have the SP to fly ships that need huge amount of money. You could very well be driven out of game because you can't make ISK anymore - if you are a terrible player. But how could we tell? We don't know you.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2012-01-06 02:25:09 UTC

A couple quick comments:

1.) Death has consequences. If you lose a lot of ships, you need to have an income to replace them. Hence the "fly what you can afford to lose" mantra. If you rarely lose your ship, you can afford to put pricier mods on it.... Something to note: paying 10-100x more for a module that is only a few percent better than the t2 variant will rarely save your ship, and more often than not just makes better loot.

2.) There are NO SAFE PLACES in EvE. Many players think staying in Hi-sec means they are safe... and they are wrong! Being in Hi-sec means an aggressor faces harsher consequences for blowing up your ship.... but they can still blow up your ship. If you make it profitable for them to do so, or just annoy them enough.... they will!

3.) The ideas of Best Ships and Best Fittings in EvE are moderately inappropriate. Finding the absolute best ship and setup for a task is not as important as using a good ship and fittings for the task. To give an example, the Malediction, Raptor, Ares, and Stiletto are all fleet interceptors designed to do the same basic task... quickly warp to, lock, and tackle a target so a gang and come kill it. Each one is a little different, perhaps faster, locks quicker, outputs more dps, or has a bigger tank, but these differences only matter under very specific circumstances. While different pilots have their preferences, each ship is very capable and valuable for their role. Then compare these ships to a rifter, which is 1/10th the price but can perform the same task at 70% efficiency. Sometimes you need that extra oomph, but more often than not you don't! And if your doing your task well in a rifter, no-one cares that your not in a stiletto!

4.) EvE is moreless a game in balance. Tank, gank, range, and speed are the primary attributes that ships fit around, and they can all be negated by EWAR. Bigger ships have bigger tanks and deal more damage at farther ranges, but are slower and have a much harder time applying that damage to smaller targets. There are no I-Win Ships (*cough* anymore --> Supercap nerf *cough*). Essentially, each ship has its own strengths and weaknesses, and being skilled in EvE means fitting and flying your ship to take advantage of its strengths and weaknesses, as well as your enemy's. It really is a Rochambeau match, where skill means you know how to avoid rock and engage paper when your setup as scissors.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-01-06 09:51:54 UTC
Yes, getting killed in EVE has a meaning. Your ship and modules are lost or are dropped in the wreck (which if you are lucky is still there to loot if you return to the site, but don't count on it). This ends up in EVE rule no. 1: Don't fly what you can't afford to loose.

On your point of flying the uber ship. This will likely not happen in a long time and even then, everything in EVE has its opposite, so even the biggest baddest ship is killable by other ships. There is no such thing as unkillable ships (though some ships can come close to it).

Almost all ships and modules (except the give aways from CCP) are seeded into the market / contracts by other players.

If you fly a ship right, so not just skill the skills that are needed to sit in a ship (be able to sit in a ship doesn't mean you can fly it) can also make it less likely you get shot down. In EVE beside the ingame skillpoints a lot depends on your own actual skill on how good you are at flying a ship. So I suggest to start small and learn your way up over rushing towards a large ship and not be able to fly it properly (seen a new player buy a carrier pilot from character bazaar and loose a carrier within a week as he did not know how to fly carriers).

Kind regards,

J'Poll

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Grakulus Silmaril
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-01-06 14:11:16 UTC
Thanks for the help. I'm still at the stage where I don't know what ships are appropriate or useful for certain activities at different skill levels so I'll have to start looking at that next. Because I'm just starting out its hard to imagine being in a situation where ships become somewhat disposable!

Cheers for now.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-06 14:47:01 UTC
Grakulus Silmaril wrote:
Thanks for the help. I'm still at the stage where I don't know what ships are appropriate or useful for certain activities at different skill levels so I'll have to start looking at that next. Because I'm just starting out its hard to imagine being in a situation where ships become somewhat disposable!

Cheers for now.


Easy to calculate.

Let's say you can make a decent 50+ mil / hour. Then loosing a fitted ship worth 70mil isn't really a problem (only takes up to 2 hours to get it back). Same ship but now with a newer player that can get about 10mil / hour tops, it takes a full day (approx 8 hours) to get that back.

So in general, just look at what your ship cost you to buy and fit and see how long it takes to get that same amount of money back. If you can instantly replace the ship or in a really short time, it's affordable to loose it.

Like one of the other guys in here, my JF is not anything near affordable to loose, I still fly it around but with the greatest care and also if you fly such a ship properly it is really hard to loose. If I loose it anyway, yeah it sucks, I have to grind another 6bil worth to buy new one which will set me back a long time.

JP

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#14 - 2012-01-06 15:32:04 UTC
Some people who play EVE and retain the traditional MMO belief that the end goal is to have the highest level character with the most purple gear. Those people die in shame. All that putting huge piles of expensive modules on a ship does is hang a big "I am an idiot" sign around you neck and paint a target on your forehead.

In EVE ships are expendable tools that you use to perform a task and when you fit them out you do so with the knowledge that at any point it is possible for some people to come along and cause your ship to explode. People who ignore that rule do so at their own peril and usually end up paying for it.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-01-06 16:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Some people who play EVE and retain the traditional MMO belief that the end goal is to have the highest level character with the most purple gear. Those people die in shame. All that putting huge piles of expensive modules on a ship does is hang a big "I am an idiot" sign around you neck and paint a target on your forehead.

In EVE ships are expendable tools that you use to perform a task and when you fit them out you do so with the knowledge that at any point it is possible for some people to come along and cause your ship to explode. People who ignore that rule do so at their own peril and usually end up paying for it.


Heh, that killmail is a prime example of Doing it Wrong. A ship fitted with over six billion ISK worth of stuff and in reality it really isn't that much better than a 150 million ISK fit, but it does ensure that when (not if, when) you lose it, the guys killing you get a huge haul of loot and there will be comments on the killmail thread on killboards laughing at the pilot Doing It Wrong.

I can only stress this point again; In EVE you should never seek what is statistically/"theorycrafted" as the "best" ship and/or module for doing job X. Instead, you should figure out which one is the most cost-effective or straight up cheapest. Ships and fittings are tools. You can spend a fortune on a bit better tool but in the end it just does the same job and puts far more ISK at risk.

Also since you can be killed anywhere in EVE (except while inside a station), you always have to consider the fact that going overboard with pricy and rare stuff also sets you up as a target for suicide gank. If someone shoots you in high sec, CONCORD will kill their ship. Hence, nobody does it unless they are doing it for griefing purposes (and are willing to pay the ship loss and standing loss) or if they see that your ship and fittings are worth FAR more than what they'd lose if they gank you. Spending 2 billion ISK on a mission ship ensures that your average suicide gank squad will, assuming pricy mods drop in the wreck, end up more than a billion ISK in profit when they gank you. In high sec.

For this reason alone, getting "the best stuff" for anything other than fitting super-expensive supercaps is completely stupid. A good rule of thumb: If your fittings (modules) cost more than the ship hull, you are potentially overdoing it... If they cost more than 5 times your ship hull, you are definitely in bling bling territory and should reconsider.

(...this bit about gank risk is also the reason why there are practical limitations how much valuable stuff is fine to fly around in high sec in a ship. For T1 haulers it is something like 40-50 million ISK, for T2 haulers 100-150 million ISK and for Freighters about 1-1.5 billion ISK. Haul more than that in one go and get spotted doing so, and someone might consider piling on you as a "business transaction". Cost: ships that blow up your ship (lost to CONCORD), Revenue: Stuff looted from the wreck, Profit: Revenue minus the costs...)
Grakulus Silmaril
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-01-06 23:50:11 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

In EVE ships are expendable tools that you use to perform a task .


Jarnis McPieksu wrote:

In EVE you should never seek what is statistically/"theorycrafted" as the "best" ship and/or module for doing job X. Instead, you should figure out which one is the most cost-effective or straight up cheapest.


Perhaps these two quotes get to the heart of the leap of thinking that is required of me in EVE? In other MMOs I think in terms of my character and his/her bling gear. In EVE perhaps I have fallen into the trap of thinking of my ship as my character - to be fitted out with the best gear I can find. And as such, it's hard to imagine gameplay that allows for losing that gear every time I lose a PVP or get ganked going about my business. It seems that EVE definitely requires me to bust out of the gameplay logic that has become ingrained over so many years in other games. It is however, compelling for that reason and for others to...
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#17 - 2012-01-07 00:13:40 UTC
Stop talking about "in other MMOs altogether.. Unless you've played an MMO that actually remotely resembles EVE (and to my knowledge there are none), that comparison is ultimately just misleading.
Grakulus Silmaril
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-01-07 12:26:50 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Stop talking about "in other MMOs altogether.. Unless you've played an MMO that actually remotely resembles EVE (and to my knowledge there are none), that comparison is ultimately just misleading.

To be fair CCP state most clearly that its a MMORPG so if its a mistake to think of it as such, then its an easy mistake to make.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-07 12:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Grakulus Silmaril wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

In EVE ships are expendable tools that you use to perform a task .


Jarnis McPieksu wrote:

In EVE you should never seek what is statistically/"theorycrafted" as the "best" ship and/or module for doing job X. Instead, you should figure out which one is the most cost-effective or straight up cheapest.


Perhaps these two quotes get to the heart of the leap of thinking that is required of me in EVE? In other MMOs I think in terms of my character and his/her bling gear. In EVE perhaps I have fallen into the trap of thinking of my ship as my character - to be fitted out with the best gear I can find. And as such, it's hard to imagine gameplay that allows for losing that gear every time I lose a PVP or get ganked going about my business. It seems that EVE definitely requires me to bust out of the gameplay logic that has become ingrained over so many years in other games. It is however, compelling for that reason and for others to...


Pretty much. Set yourself goals as to what you want to do, figure out what is required to do it ("cheaply" at first, then perhaps "good investment vs. efficiency" level at some point) and train & obtain the tools required and go do it.

It could be as simple as "do level 3 missions -> hmm I'll probably need a battlecruiser with a reasonable tank..." and then going from there figuring out what skills you need trained to be able to use the required modules and then getting those and assembling the setup and doing the missions. It is perfectly fine to upgrade to tech 2 level modules as those generally offer good price/performance and are usually considered to be the "baseline" for older players (with the exception of some specific modules where a "named" lootable meta 4 module is better than tech 2 - like armor plates for example). Anything beyond that is bling and not really something one should care about for a good while.

Invest any excess ISK into training and accumulating tools for new tasks you may wish to do, not perfecting your ship for doing the task you are doing now (as it is most likely pointless waste to sink ISK into bling and you'll go into enrage mode when you inevitably at some point lose the ship). Heck, most of EVE career you are not "upgrading" your character/tools for a single task but training for additional tasks. It actually takes fairly little time to train and equip for a narrow task - year+ training plans inevitably come when you try to expand your character capabilities sideways, opening up new things you can do in the game.

I mean, at first it may seem that you are "grinding up ship levels" frigate->destroyer->cruiser->battlecruiser->battleship... etc. but in reality once you are flying a battlecruiser level ship, everything else is about expanding your options, not improving the "kill (mission rats)" tool you probably have at that point. A Battleship isn't automatically better than Battlecruiser - it depends on the job. A Dreadnought, while it may sound super cool and seem like a pwnmobile, is actually a very narrow tool for a very specific job and most who fly them, do so very very rarely. This is a very important lesson to learn and for many it takes a while and few epic losses to learn. Bigger (or with more bling) does not equal better. Instead, EVE is a huge game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock (plus few others) and is all about identifying right tools for right jobs and applying them efficiently and without silly mistakes (that result in losses), not "grinding up levels" or "farming gear" (not that you even can grind exp, you can't).

You do "grind" something in EVE and that is ISK, but that's a whole different story and does boil down to being smart and always considering risk-vs-reward.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-01-07 13:10:30 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Stop talking about "in other MMOs altogether.. Unless you've played an MMO that actually remotely resembles EVE (and to my knowledge there are none), that comparison is ultimately just misleading.


Hey, Perpetuum Online supposedly is very much like EVE. To a degree that they have "paid homage" to CCP in great many things... Lol
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