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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

First post First post
Author
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1041 - 2012-01-23 20:57:47 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability.


Wow random numbers there....
X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#1042 - 2012-01-23 21:08:17 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Tracking takes care of drones which is one of the first lines of defense that larger ships have.

Really? Assault frigs can already easily tank small drones long enough to kill them, and they can already kill those same drones.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1043 - 2012-01-23 21:11:55 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability.

Wow random numbers there....

doesnt help that the info and research for those particular numbers are from a different thread on a different forum PBlink

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Cuko
Shadowflame Cartel
#1044 - 2012-01-23 23:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cuko
Final conclusion:

I had intended to write this on the release day of Crucible 1.1. However, I'll be busy in real life and with in game responsibilities for the foreseeable future. This is more focused towards solo pvp.

There's no serious difference in damage between viable Enyo and Ishkur set-ups. A more balanced Enyo (400 damage per second heated) set-up versus a Glass Cannon-Enyo (455 damage per second heated). The balanced Enyo set-up wins everytime. When engaging Interceptors, navy and pirate frigates. The Enyo wins hands down (exception, Dramiel, Hookbill, Cruor and Imperial Navy Slicer). Versus 2 Rifters (130 damage per second, 5000 ehp). Glass cannon set-up wins.

(I Tested all assault frigates against 2 Rifters, 2 Thrashers, 1 - 2 Rupture, 1 - 2 Hurricanes and I've watched others one versus one in assault ships against most frigates).

The Ishkur with a active defence (300 damage per second no heat) stomps on both set-ups.Not to mention you're able to put together a more balanced glass cannon-Ishkur (370 damage per second heated and damage selection because of drones).

Many will ignore certain setups and will focus on defence (active). Not to mention applied and projected damage. Many assault ships able to field massive defences. Are able to do 250 - 320 damage per second. Some assault ships are able to mitigate 2 Thrashers worth of damage long enough to destroy both ships. Any non-assault ship (frigate) not able to dictate range (run away) within warp scrambler range (afterburner or dual propulsion). Will be annihilated. The Jaguar, Vengeance and Hawk are exceptions. However, a Hawk and Vengeance are able to do 250 - 290 damage per second, with lesser defences.

The Harpy is basically a Drake: Active mitigation of damage (300 damage per second heated), long range-8000ehp 200 damage per second @ 23,000m (heated), 15,000ehp (300 damage per second heated). The Harpy and Retribution superior @ range. However, a Artillery Jaguar is able to do 110 damage per second @ 20,000m and has superior mobility (works real well with a web).

Vengeace is just a BEAST!

Hawk is a Hawk and will have complete ability to dictate range, within warp scrambler range or just BEAST TANK.

The Wolf and Jaguar will get sh!ted on by non Minmatar assault ships within warp scrambler range.

With that all said. The most viable FLEET assault frigates will be the Jaguar and Harpy.

This is how I ranked them in the end below...

Ranked: Edited (Fail typos**)

Close range (under 9,000m)
-
(1) Ishkur
(2) Vengeance
(3) Enyo
(4) Hawk
(5) Harpy (mirrors Enyo, minus tracking)
(6) Jaguar (everything can be done better by ships above (alot like a Harpy), minus capless weapon system and superior mobility)
(7) Wolf (alot of assault ships are able to do the same or better and have superior active defence set-ups)
(8) Retribution

Long range (20,000m or more)
-
(1) Retribution
(2) Harpy (May be superior to a Retribution @ range, with superior defences, dual stasis webifier or dual propulsion)
(3) Hawk (standard missile launcher and superior defences)
(4) Jaguar
(5) Wolf


-proxyyyy
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1045 - 2012-01-23 23:40:29 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability.

Wow random numbers there....

doesnt help that the info and research for those particular numbers are from a different thread on a different forum PBlink


Post the research and I'll start tearing those over generalized numbers you posted apart.


Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1046 - 2012-01-24 01:01:20 UTC
Sweet vacuum proxyyyy Roll
Jerick, read the thread on FHC

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Shaera Taam
Khanid Prime Free Irregulars
#1047 - 2012-01-24 02:37:18 UTC
i used to be excited for a af buff, yknow
ill admit to not being the most experienced frig pvp driver out there, but jeez, im beginning to wish ccp'd hold off until crucible 1.2 and give these changes some (more) serious thought

and mwd?

rly?

why?

Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!

Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1048 - 2012-01-24 03:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirei Jun
Meant to write this earlier:

After more experimentation and consideration I have come to the conclusion an AB boost would be game breaking. Yep, I admit I was wrong. The reasons for this are posted throughout this tread... plus I found a few others.

So, while I like the idea of AFs having a distinct and different bonus, giving them an AB bonus would simply break too many other mechanics in the game -a shame.


With that said, there are still major issues in this game with small ships being viable or useful in any way during large engagements, or versus larger ships. I hope this problem is examined by a development team at some point.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#1049 - 2012-01-24 06:02:59 UTC
The AF are much more effective against larger ships. And while you may see some pilots get those rare kill mails they are supposed to be heavy tackle - grab the enemy and hold on for that minute it takes for support to arrive.

Small ships are skirmish ships. You use them for such. There's nothing wrong with that. You didn't see 30 gun frigates slugging it out with 100 gun ships of the line back in Napoleonic times. They were commerce raiders. They were scouts. They were messengers.

I have seen FC's use small ships effectively in large fleet actions. But in those cases they sent them in just as the enemy was about to break. You don't focus fire to well when everyone is running. Send in the interceptors and catch the slow stragglers.

EAF need to be addressed now. And I feel that interceptors should get higher resists. Speed and signature are not quite enough in the age of tracking enhancers.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#1050 - 2012-01-24 14:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Marian Devers
Fun Fact:

Gallente AF have the same signature on MWD as Shield Tanked Interceptors (@ Interceptor skill lvl. 4);

(30% higher at Interceptor lvl. 5; they also have between two (2) to three (3) times the DPS of a Shield Interceptor, while being 28% slower and 62% tougher - Enyo vs. Crow).

So a lvl. 1 Enyo will have a better/equal signature radius than a lvl. 4 Interceptor;
Kai Jyokoroi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1051 - 2012-01-24 14:46:42 UTC
Sure happy to see that you dudes asked for feedback and then took no notice of anybody, as per usual!
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1052 - 2012-01-24 18:39:06 UTC
At least this Buff wasn't over the top. I think CCP are now cautios of ******* the game up even more than they have in past alterations.
These test server feed back posts will be of varying help to them because the most vocal posters tend to be those that have an alterior motive to make what they can use better and those that just like to spout utter and total bollox for the sake of it.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1053 - 2012-01-24 21:09:50 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
Fun Fact:

Gallente AF have the same signature on MWD as Shield Tanked Interceptors (@ Interceptor skill lvl. 4);

(30% higher at Interceptor lvl. 5; they also have between two (2) to three (3) times the DPS of a Shield Interceptor, while being 28% slower and 62% tougher - Enyo vs. Crow).

So a lvl. 1 Enyo will have a better/equal signature radius than a lvl. 4 Interceptor;


Good thing it goes just as fast! LolRoll

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#1054 - 2012-01-25 13:13:30 UTC
53 pages of feedback and exactly how much of it was incorporated into your actual final changes?

Why do you even bother putting up a feedback thread if you actively ignore it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#1055 - 2012-01-26 00:07:16 UTC
I know its poor form, but "I told you so". Lol

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Ninevite
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1056 - 2012-01-29 04:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninevite
these changes were dumb as **** and CCP still implemented them even after 53 pages of thread telling them not too

edit: I enjoy flying my new ishkur with an extra low slot yet no leftover cpu to fit anything and weapon systems that still suck. thanks ccp, my ass hairs could do a better job at balancing this game than you all can
samivael
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1057 - 2012-01-29 18:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: samivael
Why ask for feedback if you do nothing with it? it's a good question, the same goes for the neocom.

A good example in this case: the enyo needs an extra 5 or 10 cpu to be on par with other afs. This was mentioned by numerous people before the changes went live and yet not a thing was done.

Original ideas should get refined and improved upon during testing, you are not infallible as was recently shown. Dont let the arrogance resurface after you've done so much work to rekindle faith in your vision.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1058 - 2012-01-31 06:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
samivael wrote:
A good example in this case: the enyo needs an extra 5 or 10 cpu to be on par with other afs. This was mentioned by numerous people before the changes went live and yet not a thing was done.

LolLolLol
To be on par with the other AFs?
I don't think you're playing the same game as everyone else.

You want to have the best possible fit? Spend isk on the shiny named modules (not faction).
Don't complain about fitting if you're trying to squeeze all T2 on your ship when many named mods are better.
I'm having no trouble fitting an MWD Enyo with neutrons+nos, as well as a tank Roll

Still can't figure it out?
You've got two rig slots & two implant slots to to reduce CPU if (for whatever reason) you still can't fit something.
If you still can't fit it, there are several skills you probably don't have trained (Engineering/Weapon Upgrades/Advanced Weapon Upgrades) that will give you more than enough fitting to do some crazy ****.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1059 - 2012-01-31 12:08:07 UTC
Ninevite wrote:


edit: I enjoy flying my new ishkur with an extra low slot yet no leftover cpu to fit anything and weapon systems that still suck. thanks ccp, my ass hairs could do a better job at balancing this game than you all can


You're trolling right??......

Ishkur could kill almost any frig prior to this AF buff... With the addition of 50% more drone hp and another low (adaptive nano) the ship is significantly more capable than it was before.... And btw, small blasters do not suck nor have they ever sucked... They were great before the hybrid buff... and are even better now.

Not trying to be an ass but I'm pretty sure the problem is the pilot not the ship in this situation.
Anja Talis
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal
#1060 - 2012-02-01 12:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Talis
So, has low sec PVP collapsed following the release? Or is it better? :D

So far I'm enjoying it. I'm seeing quite a few more valid targets when out and roaming around. Lots more AFs being used too imo.

I've noticed quite a few being fielded in some of the militia blobs too.