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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#941 - 2012-01-19 13:51:14 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Crucible features page indicates this is rolling out on Tuesday. If you subtract out the weekend, CCP Tallest should update today, tomorrow, or Monday at the latest.

Update is: Enyo loses 200 armor, jag gains 10 CPU and 200 base shield, retribution tracking bonus increases to 7.5%/level.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#942 - 2012-01-19 17:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Tsubutai wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Crucible features page indicates this is rolling out on Tuesday. If you subtract out the weekend, CCP Tallest should update today, tomorrow, or Monday at the latest.

Update is: Enyo loses 200 armor, jag gains 10 CPU and 200 base shield, retribution tracking bonus increases to 7.5%/level.


Imo

Vengeance:
ROF bonus -> 5% damage bonus. [2x BCU + rage rockets: 193 dps instead of 206]
Sig radius from 48 to 42

Hawk:
ROF bonus -> 5% damage bonus to all missile damage. [2x BCU + rage rockets: 203 dps instead of 217]
Sig radius from 44 to 41

All other AFs are between 33 and 39 sig radius, it makes no sense to have two that have a much larger one.

Retribution:
Tracking bonus from 5% to 7.5%
5% damage bonus -> 5% ROF bonus [DLP + 2x HS + Navy MF: 210 dps instead of 198]

Disclaimer: dps numbers may not be exact, but the percentage gain/loss should be correct.

Also some stuff with Jaguar.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#943 - 2012-01-19 19:31:58 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

A tracking bonus is a means to mitigate damage against larger targets' drones.


Have you considered the ramifications of a tracking bonus? It’s not like your tracking goes up only against drones. You're making it too powerful.

Also about AF's being expensive in both skills and cost... that’s kind of the point of T2 isn't it? You get improved performance, but the cost is time and isk. If your ship is not surviving, you are either fitting it wrong or not using it for the right purpose.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#944 - 2012-01-19 20:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
After giving it some more thought I have to say that I would prefer to have a bonus to Afterburners on my AFs instead of a reduction of MWD penalties. this is due to the fact that frigates are frequently fitted with short-range points, meaning they would disable my MWD - which is a huge downside to microwarp when the opponent is fitted with an Afterburner.

So, Afterburner it is. CCP pretty please with sugar on top give Assault Ships a bonus to afterburners! kthxbye Blink

P.S. Dual prop on an AF would probably be a bad idea since you sacrifice tankability which in my opinion is WROOOOOOONG
Zircon Dasher
#945 - 2012-01-19 21:00:52 UTC
no ab bonus for u!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Zaine Maltis
Innsmouth Enterprises
#946 - 2012-01-19 21:17:00 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
After giving it some more thought I have to say that I would prefer to have a bonus to Afterburners on my AFs instead of a reduction of MWD penalties. this is due to the fact that frigates are frequently fitted with short-range points, meaning they would disable my MWD - which is a huge downside to microwarp when the opponent is fitted with an Afterburner.

So, Afterburner it is. CCP pretty please with sugar on top give Assault Ships a bonus to afterburners! kthxbye Blink

P.S. Dual prop on an AF would probably be a bad idea since you sacrifice tankability which in my opinion is WROOOOOOONG


Have you actually read anything in this thread? Or just knee-jerked a response out which just makes you look dumb?

Innsmouth Enterprises
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#947 - 2012-01-19 23:03:27 UTC
Quote:
After giving it some more thought I have to say that I would prefer to have a bonus to Afterburners on my AFs

Idiot or newbie, I wonder which...
Kiran
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#948 - 2012-01-19 23:08:19 UTC
I like the look of the new changes I can make the Jaguar and Wolf work for me like this very well already got ideas of fits floating about.

Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#949 - 2012-01-19 23:08:37 UTC
Sylvous wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

A tracking bonus is a means to mitigate damage against larger targets' drones.


Have you considered the ramifications of a tracking bonus? It’s not like your tracking goes up only against drones. You're making it too powerful.

Also about AF's being expensive in both skills and cost... that’s kind of the point of T2 isn't it? You get improved performance, but the cost is time and isk. If your ship is not surviving, you are either fitting it wrong or not using it for the right purpose.


They don't really have issues tracking frigates to start.
The only people who couldn't track frigates were people running Wolfs/Retributions with long range ammo and/or have noidea how to manually pilot.

And I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say with the cost of the T2 ships.
My point was that there are people complaining that their significantly cheaper T1 frigates won't be able to compete with the significantly more expensive ships in the game. No ****.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Kiran
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#950 - 2012-01-19 23:13:24 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Quote:
Jaguar

* Added bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level
* +1 low slot

[Jaguar, tackle close range]
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Invulnerability Field II

3x 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I

[Jaguar, Tackle long range]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Ancillary Ballistic Screen Stabilizer I
Invulnerability Field II

3x 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP S
[empty high slot]

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I


These are my normal Jaguar fits, I use the Assault ship to tacke cruisers, BCs, t3 or BS, its allows me to tank well, give me 1 or 2 minutes of life until the rest of the guys arrive.

Looking at this fit, I would say the jaguar problems are:

Short range:

  • The missing power that I need to compensate with a PDS because I miss 0,14 Power!!!!
  • The fact I cannot fit a Warp Scramber T2 because I miss 3,25 of CPU !!!

Long range:

  • The missing power that I need to compensate with a PDS because I miss 1,93 Power!!!!
  • The fact I cannot fit a Kinectic Amplifier T2 because I miss 7 of CPU

Common problems:

  • My sig is 263m -> but since you are giving a new bonus of 50% = 153% (still too high for a frig)
  • For a close range tacking job, this frig needs a buffer!! It needs to tank drones and fire power of a ship at least 1 minute! So I have to fit a stupid Medium SE II for short range combat (that increase my sig even more), instead of fitting a web!!!
  • The cap only lasts 32-39 seconds!
  • I always have an empty high slot, I cannot fit a launcher, no power, no CPU!

What the jaguar needs is:

  • 3 more base CPU
  • 3 more base Power
  • Remove the launcher slot, give 1 more turrent instead
  • Give some bonus to guns fitting, so we can install 4 turrents (cannons or artillery)
  • More shield buffer (round it to 1000)
  • More cap stability (at least 1 minute cap)
  • Finnaly, the Jaguar is a shield tanking ship! it doesn't need a low slot, it needs a middle one! If you want to give it a slot give a middle one! -> and if you do that it will need more cpu and more power so the slot can be properly used...


I can fit a Jag with enough tank and be cap stable with all weapon slots full. You either need to rethink your fits or get better skills. I wont post my fits, but trust me you can fit a really nice Jag already without any expensive faction mods.
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#951 - 2012-01-19 23:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Todd Jaeger
i ask ccp to take a look at heavy assault missiles,and heavy assaults ships especialy sacrilege,and amarr cpu/pg output,its just imposible to fitt any of them with t2 mods like other ships.gallente got this buff when cruciable was launched.thank you
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#952 - 2012-01-20 00:10:39 UTC
I can't get on Sisi to confirm but;
  • The Enyo had the extra 200 armor removed, and is now back down to 879 base.
  • The Retribution tracking bonus has been increased to 7.5%
  • The Jags base cpu has been bumped up to 170 (+10) and base shields up to 833 (+200)

    • Yeeeeee

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    m0cking bird
    Doomheim
    #953 - 2012-01-20 00:23:09 UTC
    Start removing slots CCP!
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #954 - 2012-01-20 00:30:31 UTC
    m0cking bird wrote:
    Start removing slots CCP!

    Stop taking drugs Proxyyy!

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    Stukkler Tian
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #955 - 2012-01-20 00:43:19 UTC
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    Also wrong. The bad AFs have weaknesses. AFs are the heavy combat frigates. They already do, and should continue to, shred other Frigates. T1 Cruisers & Recons don't typically stand a chance against HACs, so by comparison neither should the *lighter* T2 combat frigates & T1 frigates. AFs are also pretty bad against larger ships. They need a direct warp-in at least, as they are cannon fodder on approach otherwise.

    I truly can't believe you guys are crying that your 500k isk Rifters (or whatever t1), which takes minimum of 70k SP to fly, won't be able to handily kill a 25m Wolf (or whatever other heavy combat AF), which requires an absolute minimum of 1+mil SP to board. You can't really be serious. You could train a Thrasher up to Destroyers 5 in less than half that time, save a ton of isk, and make AF pilots sweat with ease. To top it all off, nobody is going to buy an AF on a regular basis if they don't have all the appropriate skills to a significantly high level. It's far more effective for pvp (and on the wallet) for said pilot to spend the time flying Destroyers or T1 Frigates before jumping into the occasional AF.

    You can't honestly think that the majority of FW guys (for example) who lose numerous T1 frigates a day are going to be able to afford the same volume of AFs. 5 fully t2 fit Rifters for under 20mil, cool! 5 t2 fit AFs for ~120mil, not so cool. Roll



    A well flown rifer that is fit for the task should be able to have a shot against a badly flow and fit af thats the way it is now. It isint easy but it can be done. Its like saying a vega or even better a zealot should not be allowed to lose to a rupture or sfi if he gets caught inside web and scram range.
    I lost a Jag today because i didn't fit it right and flew it like an idiot, this doesn't mean the jag is broken it means i was an idiot. (thanks for the tips Alex)
    I also lost a rifter to a wolf I did everything right was fit specifically to kill him (tracking disruptor permanently overheated t2 burner) and he did everything i wanted him to until the very end of the fight. Then he Switched his ammo from barrage to fusion got rid of my traversal and killed me. He was able to do this because he was not an idiot and he was flying a good well balanced ship. It was a good fight and turned out exactly the way it should have. Because it was still a good fight that I had a slight chance of winning i will still try the same thing on a different opponent tomorrow and like today we will both enjoy it .
    Now let me tell you how that fight goes with these boosts I warp in the fight starts he kills me in the first 5 seconds, without any manual piloting or even switching to short range ammo. I reship to a ab fit claw, he does the same exact thing, I fit a firetail with a td web scram and ab I get in tight he switches ammo to slightly better tracking fusion I die again. I reship to a slicer, its a wolf im a slicer my shots do nothing to him his barrage is tearing me a new ******* i warp out. I swap to a ab and web ranis he switches back to fusion i die, I swap to a ab and td ranis die just the same. I hop back into a fire tail only this time its shield tanked i keep range at 7000 and use barrage he kills me without switching from fusion, I get back in a TD fire tail I use an optimal disruption script, and stay out at overheated scram range, He switches to barrage I die again. I get in my own wolf its a good fight but i still lose because im not very good with the wolf. I reship into the same wolf he feels sorry for me ships down to a fire tail i kill him, he gets back in his wolf and neither of us ever flies anything but assault frigates again. We both spend the remainder of our low-sec days trapped in AFs picking off idiots who think they have to fit a mwd to a enyo because of the new role bonus.

    Ps. Look up Darkstar Pownyouall he is killing t3s with firetails I guess that means they need a boost, either that or the fire tail is the most op ship in the game.


    m0cking bird
    Doomheim
    #956 - 2012-01-20 00:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    m0cking bird wrote:
    Start removing slots CCP!

    Stop taking drugs Proxyyy!



    Made me lol, because I'm smoking a drug right now.

    Remove extra slots from the Ishkur, Wolf, Harpy, Vengeance (dont remember if this still has new high slot) now! Remove damage bonuses and ROF bonuses from Hawk and Vengeance altogether.


    -proxyyyy
    Prester Tom
    Death By Design
    #957 - 2012-01-20 01:45:06 UTC
    So, with these new uber-AFs (they're utterly completely awesome) will we be seeing the legendary T3 frigates make an appearance before too long? Ones that can pwn any other frigate out there 1v1 but cost 100m isk bare..
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #958 - 2012-01-20 01:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
    @Stukkler
    What you're worried about would still occur. Fit an AF badly and you're going to risk getting killed by a lesser combat frig.
    HACs all spank the **** out of T1 Cruisers, and will only die if they are lucky with ewar application (ie: ecm drones), or a particular matchup (ie: Thorax catching a Vagabond). For all intents and purposes T2>T1. The only difference is that Frigates don't exactly have the tanks of Cruisers to make up for the mistakes made, so if you mess up you pretty much explode. Not something to be concerned about IMO.

    Congrats to Darkstar for killing a T3 in a Firetail, but that thing may as well have been fit to mine and doesn't really work as an example on your behalf Lol


    @Prestor
    God, I hope not. There's no need.
    There are more frigates sized ships than any other ship, and there are fair number of crap ships in the game that need fixing before anyone goes and produces a whole new set of ships Ugh

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    Stukkler Tian
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #959 - 2012-01-20 01:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Stukkler Tian
    you are right it doesnt help my argument but im still bringing it up because its awesome.

    on a side not what is the thorax vs vega matchup for t1 frigs and afs.
    Sylvous
    Bigger than Jesus
    #960 - 2012-01-20 02:38:52 UTC
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

    And I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say with the cost of the T2 ships.
    My point was that there are people complaining that their significantly cheaper T1 frigates won't be able to compete with the significantly more expensive ships in the game. No ****.


    My bad, I totally misunderstood what you were saying as far as cost goes. Yeah, its good now, T1 versions don't stand a chance, and that's the way it should be.

    m0cking bird wrote:
    Start removing slots CCP!


    This^^

    With the exception of the retri, remove a high slot and give it a mid.