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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Author
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#881 - 2012-01-17 10:38:52 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The proposed Role Bonus allows the AFs to move about a battlefield, or across lawless regions of space, without being tarred and feathered for being bad ships. They are simply too fragile, too slow, and too fat to move about without incurring massive amounts of damage, rendering them useless outside of Empire.


I'm inclined to think that my suggestion of giving AFs (or all Frigates for that matter) an inbuilt Interdiction Nullifier as a role bonus would achieve your stated goal better than the MWD bonus.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#882 - 2012-01-17 10:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Xorv wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The proposed Role Bonus allows the AFs to move about a battlefield, or across lawless regions of space, without being tarred and feathered for being bad ships. They are simply too fragile, too slow, and too fat to move about without incurring massive amounts of damage, rendering them useless outside of Empire.


I'm inclined to think that my suggestion of giving AFs (or all Frigates for that matter) an inbuilt Interdiction Nullifier as a role bonus would achieve your stated goal better than the MWD bonus.


How does that help them avoid getting barbecued by a Battlecruiser before they can even get in range?

Mind you, even with the MWD bloom reduction it's still possible, just harder, to do this to AFs.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#883 - 2012-01-17 11:08:39 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

How does that help them avoid getting barbecued by a Battlecruiser before they can even get in range?



Well I didn't say it was a guaranteed means to beat a BC. However, by being Bubble immune you somewhat create a low sec environment in Null for these ships., and they seem to be quite popular in Low Sec despite the presence of Battle cruisers.

Bent Barrel
#884 - 2012-01-17 12:06:01 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The proposed Role Bonus allows the AFs to move about a battlefield, or across lawless regions of space, without being tarred and feathered for being bad ships. They are simply too fragile, too slow, and too fat to move about without incurring massive amounts of damage, rendering them useless outside of Empire.


I'm inclined to think that my suggestion of giving AFs (or all Frigates for that matter) an inbuilt Interdiction Nullifier as a role bonus would achieve your stated goal better than the MWD bonus.


How does that help them avoid getting barbecued by a Battlecruiser before they can even get in range?

Mind you, even with the MWD bloom reduction it's still possible, just harder, to do this to AFs.


run the math ...

Enyo has a sig radius of 39m a gistii a-type mwd has 422% sig bloom. This gives the Enyo a 193m signature radius. 50% reduction will get it to 96m. A more common t2 MWD will get it to 111m signature (almost cruiser gun sig res). You spent 65m isk on a module to make you 30% more survivable.

Now the enyo goes twice as fast, but this does not matter much on a straight approach. an MWDing thorax is about 1500m/sec, the enyo is 2300m/sec or so. That's 800m/sec advantage for the enyo. Closing from 24-25km will take the enyo 18 seconds (into 10km range for a scrambler). It has drones on it already. a different ship (minmatar, amarr) has better gun range and/or drones. once both MWDs are out (off or scrambler), the cruiser has web or two (according to Prom) so the enyo is again slower (there's almost no af that can afford 2 webs).

We are always getting into a stalemate either by the HP/tank difference or drones/neuts. And the Af is on the losing end here.

This may apply differently to different AFs, but don't forget that there are usualy more people involved in a fight.

The MWD bonus does not make much difference against cruiser gun vessels.
Bent Barrel
#885 - 2012-01-17 12:07:15 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

How does that help them avoid getting barbecued by a Battlecruiser before they can even get in range?



Well I didn't say it was a guaranteed means to beat a BC. However, by being Bubble immune you somewhat create a low sec environment in Null for these ships., and they seem to be quite popular in Low Sec despite the presence of Battle cruisers.



This.
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#886 - 2012-01-17 13:06:39 UTC
i'd prefer for the ishkur to be able to deploy 5 medium drones.

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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#887 - 2012-01-17 13:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Time for a proper analysis.

Tranquility Enyo
1 mn MWD II
200mm RT plate
2226 m/s
222m sig radius

SiSi Enyo
1mn MWD II
200mm RT plate
2226 m/s
129m sig radius (this can be simulated in EFT with a fully skilled Claymore booster using a T2 Evasive Maneuvers link, and a full set of high grade Halo implants minus the Halo Gamma)

The opponents
A shield tanked Hurricane with 3x Gyro, 3x TE, full rack of 425mm ACs, shooting Barrage, burning away from the Enyos at 1311 m/s.
A armor buffered gank Harbinger with 3x HS, full rack of Heavy Pulses, shooting Scorch, burning away from the Enyos at 946 m/s.
Neither use drones.

The battle
The Enyos are skillfully approaching at an angle.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1201/rolebonus%5B1%5D.jpg


The role bonus definitely helps. Not as much against a 3x TE ship but still fairly noticeable. These are scenarios already in favor of BCs because they are already burning away from the Enyos at full speed. In reality it takes some time for them to speed up and a greater speed difference means more transversal.

On a side note, I noticed that the sig radius varies a LOT between AFs. A Vengeance has a sig radius of 48m, the Hawk 44m, everything else is blow 40m. The Wolf is the lowest with 33m. That's a 45% difference between the highest and lowest. That might explain why I was able to barbecue a Vengeance so easily in a Harbinger on SiSi.
Bent Barrel
#888 - 2012-01-17 13:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bent Barrel
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Time for a proper analysis.

Tranquility Enyo
1 mn MWD II
200mm RT plate
2226 m/s
222m sig radius

SiSi Enyo
1mn MWD II
200mm RT plate
2226 m/s
129m sig radius (this can be simulated in EFT with a fully skilled Claymore booster using a T2 Evasive Maneuvers link, and a full set of high grade Halo implants minus the Halo Gamma)

The opponents
A shield tanked Hurricane with 3x Gyro, 3x TE, full rack of 425mm ACs, shooting Barrage, burning away from the Enyos at 1311 m/s.
A armor buffered gank Harbinger with 3x HS, full rack of Heavy Pulses, shooting Scorch, burning away from the Enyos at 946 m/s.
Neither use drones.

The battle
The Enyos are skillfully approaching at an angle.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1201/rolebonus%5B1%5D.jpg


The role bonus definitely helps. Not as much against a 3x TE ship but still fairly noticeable. These are scenarios already in favor of BCs because they are already burning away from the Enyos at full speed. In reality it takes some time for them to speed up and a greater speed difference means more transversal.

On a side note, I noticed that the sig radius varies a LOT between AFs. A Vengeance has a sig radius of 48m, the Hawk 44m, everything else is blow 40m. The Wolf is the lowest with 33m. That's a 45% difference between the highest and lowest. That might explain why I was able to barbecue a Vengeance so easily in a Harbinger on SiSi.


1. hurricane has quite a lot of drones (died to one yesterday :-))
2. how long does the approach take ?
3. once the enyo enters web range, what happens ? it cannot keep it's MWD but the BC CAN !!!

getting the AFs into a narrow sig rad band would help (35-7 for minmatar to about 42-3 for caldari). also have a look at mass and agility.

also the BC can manouver to close the angle ...
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#889 - 2012-01-17 13:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Bent Barrel wrote:

1. hurricane has quite a lot of drones (died to one yesterday :-))
2. how long does the approach take ?
3. once the enyo enters web range, what happens ? it cannot keep it's MWD but the BC CAN !!!

getting the AFs into a narrow sig rad band would help (35-7 for minmatar to about 42-3 for caldari).

also the BC can manouver to close the angle ...


1. Yea, drones put pressure on AFs. The bigger problem are the neuts. AF vs BC as a whole is in the BCs favor. The change helps AFs quite a bit though - a few of them will easily kill a BC without taking losses, unless the BC goes out of its way to counter frigates.
2. Hard to say since it's a spiral approach. The Enyo does 2226 m/s even with 200mm plate, while the unplated Hurricane does 1311 m/s.
3. An Enyo set up to hunt larger ships will carry a warp scrambler and a small nos to keep it running.
4. Narrowing the sig radius differences would be good I think. A 45% difference also means 45% more tracking - that's just too large of a difference.
5. The BC can maneuver yes and reduce the transversal. The AF can counter maneuver also but that's harder. See 1.
Bent Barrel
#890 - 2012-01-17 14:29:37 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Bent Barrel wrote:

1. hurricane has quite a lot of drones (died to one yesterday :-))
2. how long does the approach take ?
3. once the enyo enters web range, what happens ? it cannot keep it's MWD but the BC CAN !!!

getting the AFs into a narrow sig rad band would help (35-7 for minmatar to about 42-3 for caldari).

also the BC can manouver to close the angle ...


1. Yea, drones put pressure on AFs. The bigger problem are the neuts. AF vs BC as a whole is in the BCs favor. The change helps AFs quite a bit though - a few of them will easily kill a BC without taking losses, unless the BC goes out of its way to counter frigates.
2. Hard to say since it's a spiral approach. The Enyo does 2226 m/s even with 200mm plate, while the unplated Hurricane does 1311 m/s.
3. An Enyo set up to hunt larger ships will carry a warp scrambler and a small nos to keep it running.
4. Narrowing the sig radius differences would be good I think. A 45% difference also means 45% more tracking - that's just too large of a difference.
5. The BC can maneuver yes and reduce the transversal. The AF can counter maneuver also but that's harder. See 1.


so we do agree on most points.

so adding a cap penalty reduction like the thorax to the role bonus will be even better right ? :-)
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#891 - 2012-01-17 14:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Also I'd like to add the following:

I know my above analysis was biased towards the Hurricane. Regardless, I think the problems frigates are having depend significantly on the Minmatar ease of fitting and versatility: a Hurricane can fit double webs and double neuts without making any real sacrifices. Double neuts is standard, double webs are common in Hurricanes not even specifically outfitted to combat frigates. The popularity of Tracking Enhancers and their 30% falloff bonus further adds to the problem.

Another thing which in my opinion also doesn't work as intended is the speed of certain cruiser hulls. A Cynabal with only a 10mn MWD II already goes 2496 m/s, that's faster than most AFs. A Stabber Fleet Issue goes 2272 m/s - about as fast as the slower AFs. The discrepancy grows after fitting because cruisers can devote more slots to speed enhancing modules. In my opinion, the fastest AFs should be able to catch the fastest cruisers in a reasonable time (a significant speed advantage is needed for that, which they lack). Interceptors are great for catching targets with a warp disruptor and holding the point, but cannot be relied upon to apply warp scramblers and webs.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#892 - 2012-01-17 15:32:18 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Also I'd like to add the following:

I know my above analysis was biased towards the Hurricane. Regardless, I think the problems frigates are having depend significantly on the Minmatar ease of fitting and versatility: a Hurricane can fit double webs and double neuts without making any real sacrifices. Double neuts is standard, double webs are common in Hurricanes not even specifically outfitted to combat frigates. The popularity of Tracking Enhancers and their 30% falloff bonus further adds to the problem.


Double neut + double web canes have a very big sacrifice, they tend to have a 1600mm plate strapped on that practically slows them down to a crawl. Specifically fitting a cane to combat frigates makes them very vulnerable to other ships, particularly anything nano which is a very likely situation. Plus an AF has a greater opportunity to pick/choose its engagements, where as a hurricane is fairly easy to catch.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#893 - 2012-01-17 15:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
Double neut + double web canes have a very big sacrifice, they tend to have a 1600mm plate strapped on that practically slows them down to a crawl.


You seem to be confused about the meaning of "sacrifice".

It is absolutely not a "very big sacrifice". An armor cane doesn't need anything special in its 4th mid slot and has sufficient cpu for two webs. It is trivial to fit a second web.

Making a sacrifice means having to choose between an injector and a second web on a Harbinger or Myrmidon or a shield tank mod on a Drake.

And yes, we're talking about armor canes here.
Bent Barrel
#894 - 2012-01-17 16:01:44 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Also I'd like to add the following:

I know my above analysis was biased towards the Hurricane. Regardless, I think the problems frigates are having depend significantly on the Minmatar ease of fitting and versatility: a Hurricane can fit double webs and double neuts without making any real sacrifices. Double neuts is standard, double webs are common in Hurricanes not even specifically outfitted to combat frigates. The popularity of Tracking Enhancers and their 30% falloff bonus further adds to the problem.


Double neut + double web canes have a very big sacrifice, they tend to have a 1600mm plate strapped on that practically slows them down to a crawl. Specifically fitting a cane to combat frigates makes them very vulnerable to other ships, particularly anything nano which is a very likely situation. Plus an AF has a greater opportunity to pick/choose its engagements, where as a hurricane is fairly easy to catch.


a 1600RT+2*trimark cane still goes 1000m/sec on MWD. an mwd AF goes about 2.5 time faster, but has 10x less EHP not mentioning firepower.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#895 - 2012-01-17 17:16:30 UTC
I have no problem with the nano cruisers being faster than AFs.
In regard to the current argument, if any AF gets web+scram on a larger hull, it is faster.
The only way a larger hull is going to be moving any quicker is if it were to have a AB or 2nd web.
Granted, a couple ships only have 2 mids, but they have other strengths to compensate.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Zircon Dasher
#896 - 2012-01-17 17:36:35 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
Double neut + double web canes have a very big sacrifice, they tend to have a 1600mm plate strapped on that practically slows them down to a crawl.


You seem to be confused about the meaning of "sacrifice".

It is absolutely not a "very big sacrifice". An armor cane doesn't need anything special in its 4th mid slot and has sufficient cpu for two webs. It is trivial to fit a second web.

Making a sacrifice means having to choose between an injector and a second web on a Harbinger or Myrmidon or a shield tank mod on a Drake.

And yes, we're talking about armor canes here.



I think his point is that, while your eftDPS graph is pretty, it is utilizing 3gyro +3TE. Which precludes the ability of the Cane to fit dual web+med nuets unless that cane also is sans LSE. If you want dual webs you have to armor tank. But then you lose 1 Gryo/TE for a DCU (the fact that you didnt have one on in the first place is p. lulzy but whatever) another for a 1600plate, and usually a third for an EANM. Meaning that you now have to sacrifice all those tracking and dmg mods + the speed and agility. Most people consider the combination of less DPS, tracking, and speed/agility as a sacrifice. Even if you do not consider it so, it does not change the fact that your pretty graph is significantly different after the changes.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#897 - 2012-01-17 17:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I think his point is that, while your eftDPS graph is pretty, it is utilizing 3gyro +3TE.


The idea was to showcase a worst case scenario outside web range, with an attacker that can defend himself very well inside web range too.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#898 - 2012-01-17 18:25:25 UTC
CSM winter minutes are out. It looks like CCP is committing to a balancing pass on tech 1 frigates and cruisers as well as the tier 1 BC. The tier system is going bye-bye.
Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#899 - 2012-01-17 20:27:08 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Much of the WTF has come from the same group of people posting over and over, sometimes on different accounts to give the impression of more people (ie: proxyyyy). They're also all empire dwellers, so that doesn't come as a surprise..


There it is my opinion does not matter because I prefer to fight in low-sec, everyone plays the game differently and there are a lot of really good af pilots in low. You are choosing to ignore a very large subculture within the game, this is also the culture that will be affected the most by these changes for good or for bad. As it stands these people also have the most experience flying assault frigates so I would think twice before ignoring your low sec brothers.

I understand that assault frigs might have a few problems in fleet fighting and in 0.0 in general. I also admit that you understand these problems far better than me, if you and a host of other people with a similar background say the mwd boost is good then i will take your word for it.

Personally the mwd bonus has never been an issue for me, what is an issue is the massive secondary boosts these ships are getting. Every weakness these ships have is being filled by boosts and unnecessary slots. Even I will have trouble losing the new afs to other frigates and im a mediocre pilot at best.

The frequency and diversity of fights is what makes solo frigate pvp so fun. This is because any ship can be killed by almost any other ship even when flow by good pilots. This boost will ruin that diversity, because if im flying a rifter or any faction frig that costs less than 40 millon, I would rather fight a hurricane and pray that it doesn’t have neuts than fight any of these new assault frigates.

Will it kill solo frigate pvp? No, but it will be a serious blow to the one of the few thriving comunities left in lowsec.
Ramadawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#900 - 2012-01-17 21:03:58 UTC
I wonder if the new harpy if fitted with 2 med shield ext will be able to tank gate guns?