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Best start selling those caldari navy invulns.

warning flood of words below:

Retribution, will be able to do alot of damage and have the effective hit-points of a cruiser. So, anything that would be able to pop it. Would be able to do the same to a Vagabond. Same with the Harpy. Those 2 ships are able to field large tanks and do 200 + damage 20k or more. The Jaguar can be set-up like a interceptor and can mitigate alot of damage threw sig alone (wolf too). However it can have a large tank while doing so and out damage most combat interceptors. all assault frigates that are able to go 1900 or more. With heat! Can Mitigate damage like a interceptor. With gang-links it can be pretty insane. Try them in a gang v gang fight of 20 pilots (10 on each side, 2 logi on each side). Logistics can rep them easy.

They're alot more difficult to engage, with my Rupture unlike before in the past. Not so much with afterburner, because I would just kite, but I almost always had to go in if I wanted to explode z ship (armour rupture v ab assault frigates). I use 2 small neuts so it does shut down sh!t, if they have no cap boosters. However, not so much of a help when they have massive buffer tanks. Against ships like the wolf. Scram goes offf and on. Hwoever still able to do alot of damage to the rupture and stay alive.

P much the Ishkur, Hawk, Jaguar, Wolf, Vengeance. Are very difficult to destroy with afterbuners. With mwd. You can remove the Wolf from there. Using these ships against none close range ships like a Cynabal or Vagabond is murder. IF you can catch them you win. If you cant you leave in a mwd set-up. Same with Battle-cruisers like the Hurricane and Harbinger. The Hurricane is tougher. However it often ends up with the assault frigate winning depending on how you set-up the ships above.
These assault frigates changes make them not as squishy as they're now.

Drake is still good in web range for the most part. However, not against some of these. Dual web Hurricane with neuts still pwn them though. That is what it takes tbh. For larger ships. It takes dual webs and dual neuts to STOMP these super flies.

With that said. If pilots make glass cannon damage setups. They will pop as fast as they do now. More well rounded setups are very dangerous. So are heavy tanked setups. What they're able to do on a smaller scale is alot better than what they're able to do in fleets. But they are better in fleet compared to any other frigate class on sisi

Anyhow, fock this thread....


Keep on trying CCPTallest


-proxyyyy

For the record, against an MWD fit AF you dont need dual webs.
Blasters & ACs can track them reasonably well up close, and drones do hurt a fair bit.
For those of you who want better tracking or use lasers, tracking implants are dirt cheap, as are rigs & drugs.

Neuts will ruin ANY AFs day, and they won't be able to maintain an active tank. Only the Vengeance can be exempt from this.
However, if an AF is running an injector & mwd, any cruiser with web/scram is faster and can pull range to shred them.
AB fits remain unchanged, and if they can catch the Cruiser, stand a very good chance of winning (like they do now on TQ).

And Proxyyy, you're entire first paragraph is false, or at the very least, highly exaggerated.
It's very difficult for the AFs to actually have a Cruiser-sized tank. The average hitpoints is somewhere around 11-12k effective hitpoints, with the larger of the omni tanks being the Retribution & Vengeance. The AFs have strong T2 resistances against their nemsis race, that's about it.

As for the ranged damage dealing, they are not what you imply. A Retribution can't do 200dps @ 20+km without being paper thin, especially with an MWD. The Harpy can do 200dps @ that range as well, but like every other AF at that range, will be swatted out of the sky for even attempting something so foolish. ALL of these ships are capable of said feats on TQ right now.

And in regard to the Jaguar, you have been so consistently wrong about this ship I don't know why you keep posting about it.
Not only is it (currently) the lowest damage ship of the lot (on sisi), but it also has the worst range projection, tank, and (at range) tracking. The only thing it has going for it right now is the speed, and even when nanofit is STILL much slower than an Interceptor and would be absolutely obliterated by a Crow or Raptor (the *worst* interceptors).

And on one last note, they are not easily repped by logistics.
If you're in an engagement large enough to actually require logistics the AFs would have very little to gain.
If a fleet wants your AF dead, they will assign a couple webs to it (possibly paint it) and alpha through what little HP you have.
These are still frigates, and if someone wants them dead, they will pop like frigates.

Please, stop posting such nonsense you uninformed cretin.

the crow is actually a very dangerous intercepter when flown properly standard missle fits are brutal vs other kiters and very effective against other frigates. also it has one of the best targeting ranges of combat cepters wich is a huge advantage. I know its off topic but people moaning about the crow is a pet peeve of mine. the raptor is indeed awful . Everything else you said is true though i stand by my previous statement that this buff is a bit to much.

An AF can do all those things, yes, but not at once.

For some reason you fantasize about scrams not disabling MWDs, which is just silly since there has been no talk or even hinting that such a change would ever take place. Your right, there would be no huge difference, but the fact is that scrams disable MWDs. On top of that, no AF can MWD and tackle without severe capacitor issues, let alone maintain an active tank.

You also (for some reason) try to factor in 3000m/s as if the AFs can easily attain that.
Fact of the matter is that only the Jag can do it without crippling it's setup, and then the Jag is still slower than any Interceptor and still retains all the terrible cap issues that Interceptors do not. The only way they can achieve such speed is via fully specced Loki links and/or Snakes, both of which benefit Interceptors more.

AFs could always mitigate large amounts of damage via active tank. It's be said several times prior to this post.
The only ship that has gained a notable increase in tank is the Harpy. The rest don't gain anything significant over their current TQ counterparts.

And to use your own example, a standard shield Hurricane would have two medium neutralizers. AFs in tackle range of such a Hurricane would be gasping for cap, never mind avoiding all it's damage.

Once again, stated over and over and over.
AFs will not replace Interceptors, and have no means to get tackle on them. The AFs are no more agile than they are on TQ, and they are no faster. If an AF manages to get tackle on an Interceptor, it's because the pilot screwed up.

And as for your setups, they were discredited from the time you posted them.
Injected MWD fits only work to serve very few purposes. One is e-peen and amusement, and the other is for tight niche pvp. Neither of which is desirable over comparative setups that work in more than one scenario. Every single one of those is cap sensitive and without being able to web, slower than every Cruiser.

Yes, we get it, links are powerful. Links are (imo) too powerful.
But everything you claim to make the ships overpowered can easily be applied to another class to disprove your one-sided theories. My nano-Deimos does 430dps @ 25km while permaburning @ 3k with snakes and links. We'd better nerf HACs too, right?

You seem to be the one ignoring information, Proxyyyy.
You're trying to argue in a vacuum with one-sided testing. Heck, the other day I saw someone testing a fit similar to yours, and the person was complaining about losing tackle on an Omen because he was too slow without a web.

I mean, I asked you to put together an *Intercepting-AF* without the use of faction/officer modules, T2 rigs, links & pirate implants. You've yet to present your case but you keep spouting off these fishbowl statistics.
I know they can be made, but they remain inferior to combat Interceptors.

You spend too much time failing to prove a point and just end up looking like a ponce. FACT


@Stukkler
That's why I put the asterisks around the word worst. I know the Crow & Raptor are capable ships, but they're widely acknowledged as the worst of the bunch. The Crow lost much of its bite before Quantum Rise, and the Raptor is generally inferior to the Taranis & Ares. Not bad ships on their own, just comparatively.

Not reading all 41 pages but have to say I don't like this. Nobody is flying inti's or destroyers as is and this will render them both even more irrelevant. Trying to figure out the logic here other than CCP's continual race to the bottom by nerfing the large ships and introducing smaller cheaper ships that can dps parity them. I don't need dust or rainbow six in space.

How about instead of bumping the AF"s you get the destroyers figured out (maybe a new T2) or fix th inti's.

PS: Also this is going to completely screw up the AF v. pirate balance. Right now they are pretty much equiv (or in some cases the pirates outperform) but this is balanced by the pirate cost. AF's are cheap throw away ships and this change is going to allow them severly out perform the pirates without having the cost to balance it.

People fly inties. People aren't flying destroyers much because they exist to **** on frigates and...frigates aren't all that common in all areas. They've always been pretty specialized and rare.


Pirate/faction frigates were described in the initial rebalance as intended to be somewhere inbetween interceptors and AFs. And they do that. The daredevil MWDs at 3.9 km/s. The Succubus and Worm, while slow by pirate faction frig standards, move along at 2.6 km/s which is still faster than most AFs - and they align in 3.4/3.6 seconds for the worm/succubus, which is better than a lot of AFs.
The story is the same with the empire faction frigs. Comet is 3.5 km/s with 3s align time.

The fastest AF is the Jag, which moves at 2.7km/s with MWD and aligns in 4.2 seconds.

Add the Jaguar has:
+200 shield hp
+10 CPU

The problem here is getting the scram on the cruiser. For example, a rupture with an mwd and a plate will be doing about 1200m/s depending on skills. In comparison, a Jaguar, the fastest AF, does a little over 1000m/s with a t2 afterburner. Unless the Jag lands right on top of the rupture, he will have to chase it, and while it's not impossible for him to get the scram, the rupture pilot will have plenty of opportunity to string him out and tear him to pieces.

So, while the Jaguar may well be able to get a scram on the rupture if he lands nearby, starting at any range outside of scram range, things will go badly for the Jag pilot. Things aren't exactly easy for him even if he does get the point. Most armor ruptures have a web, and one or two small neuts. You see the problem

Goons fly Arty mael fleets more than anyone else.