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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Author
placeholder Zateki
Freehold Fleet
#581 - 2012-01-11 22:06:23 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:


"ZOMG I'm not MWDing this so that role bonus is useless"
... So ignore the MWD bonus. Not like you're missing out.



So, Your argument against people saying the bonus isn't needed, is to tell them to ignore it.

Seems to me that you are arguing for the same thing then. (If we are saying it isn't necessary, and you are telling us it can comfortably be ignored, then it isn't important enough to justify its existence)

The more I look at these changes, the more it seems that the extra slots and other changes were just a way to placate the player base and force the MWD bonus through.

AFs are already very fine ships to those who know how to fly them, calling all of them crap kind of alienates the pilots who log in and fly them every day, and as has already been stated (by prometheus himself) the majority of those pilots do not live in null. Thus, if we want true feedback on these changes we cannot look to null sec pilots as the best source.

There is a time for compromise, and a time to flatly reject the steaming pile of **** served to you and request another dish. I sincerely feel that these changes represent a case of the latter.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#582 - 2012-01-11 22:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Yeah that is what I've noticed. Even if you approach a Hurricane and are already locked from 50,000m. Heavily tanked assault frigates are able to survive the approach just fine. I suggest pilots attempt to also orbit a Hurricane with a heavly tanked assault frigate @ 24 or 28,000m (heat), with a warp disruptor. On average, most assault frigates are able to do this for 1min, 30 seconds. Do the same with any interceptor and compare.

Use Cynabal, Vagabond, Hurricane, Drake and Ruptures. Go beyond that and compare interceptors and assault frigates against 2 of these ships @ once.

The fact they're more of them are able to do this with these changes is great! However, Interceptors (which is my point)...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#583 - 2012-01-11 22:15:41 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
WTB AF that can survive a dual nuet Hurricane on TQ. With new mid slots and cap boosters maybe... Anyways, I've waited for years for AF to get buffed. Get back in the Orca Liang. P


Two things:
- http://vimeo.com/34665420 -- I'll get more videos up tonight I guess, including 1v1 harpy vs dual neut rupture and 1v1 harpy vs dual neut cyclone. I'll also get harpy vs Myrm and Harpy Taranis vs 2x Jag and many others. Its just not hard. :)
- The 4th bonus is a boost. The entire package is an OVERBOOST.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#584 - 2012-01-11 22:29:21 UTC
You won't get a consensus. Any thread on AFs- some will say no change needed; ignoring ships like the Retribution and Enyo. Others will advocate a fourth bonus that shifts like the wind. Or a role bonus. Or a logistics role FFS. I'd honestly be happy with a 5-3-3 Enyo with the increased damage bonus. Or the wolf and jag with a tracking bonus. But start a thread asking for just that and the same faces will appear shouting OP!
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#585 - 2012-01-11 22:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
So enough, about the issues I have with these changes. Here are some fun things my bros and I have been fooling around with. Pilots could see serious roaming gangs of armour or shield assault frigates, with 20 - 30,000 effective hit-points and 200 - 250 damage per second.

For example: Retribution, rail-Enyo, rail-Ishkur and Keres, with Oneiros (gang-links). Range, damage projection, high velocity and great damage mitigation. This does not scale too much, but it should be great in squads of 10 or less (against similar numbers of cruisers and possibly battle-cruisers).


-proxyyyy
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#586 - 2012-01-11 22:38:00 UTC
I'm not arguing about all the possible bonuses that could be, Zarnak. I'm arguing that the package as presented is extreme overkill and will be detrimental to game balance as a whole. At the absolute minimum, the extra slot needs to go.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#587 - 2012-01-11 23:09:56 UTC
this is just my opinion, but i find Liang and Mocking are generally detached from reality. i know i pvp more than both of them put together, and half the time i dont understand what theyre saying. in fact, i think theyre one another's alts.

AF's will not replace inties is any way, shape or form. inties:

-superior scan res
-superior speed
-superior agility, and therefore superior acceleration and juking
-extended warp disruption bonus

conclusion: tackling role. oh, whats that? inities were ALWAYS the best tacklers, and will continue to be so? Shocked
Anja Talis
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal
#588 - 2012-01-11 23:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Talis
Alex Medvedov wrote:

Could you please enlighten us which AF has its damage projection so good that can deal with said double web Hawk setup with ease, Einstein?


Based on Prom just ripping me a very large painful one, 3 times in a row, the Ishkur.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#589 - 2012-01-11 23:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hungry Eyes wrote:
this is just my opinion, but i find Liang and Mocking are generally detached from reality. i know i pvp more than both of them put together, and half the time i dont understand what theyre saying. in fact, i think theyre one another's alts.

AF's will not replace inties is any way, shape or form. inties:

-superior scan res
-superior speed
-superior agility, and therefore superior acceleration and juking
-extended warp disruption bonus

conclusion: tackling role. oh, whats that? inities were ALWAYS the best tacklers, and will continue to be so? Shocked


There are 92 words in this post. They say a picture is worth a thousand words... and how much more is a video worth? Your opinion is useless without something to back it up.

-Liang

Ed: This was me calling bullshit on you PVPing more than both of us combined, BTW. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

m0cking bird
Doomheim
#590 - 2012-01-11 23:26:46 UTC
Naomi Knight is one of my characters = )
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#591 - 2012-01-11 23:41:26 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
Naomi Knight is one of my characters = )

ShockedShockedRoll
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2012-01-11 23:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Okay lots of chatter to catch up on...

@Anja
Quote:
We may find mediocre pilots hitting far above their weight in the buffed ship? I'm certainly having some success in the Harpys and Hawk which I probably/possibly don't deserve

When it comes to frigate 1v1s or similar, that may very well be the case. Ship types and fits play a huge role.
However when it comes to larger fights or targets player skills will still be needed and you can't win a fight just by hitting F1-5 Smile

@Suleiman
The BattleHelios you speak of was developed by my ex-corp of 2+years.
So yes, I know just how devastating the ship can be. The thing is, those have a TINY engagement list, and like the Hawk, are swatted out without too much trouble.

Removing the mid slot would limit the Hawk to only engaging frigates. Your tank wouldn't be stable enough to handle larger targets, and you wouldn't have any range control if you decided to tank (like it is on TQ).

@Alex
Everything you said about the AFs would be true if they were simply limited to killing other frigates.
Once you step up to Cruisers those truths fade away, some more than others.
I'm not gonna go over the advantages of the slots for each ship, since I think myself or someone has said it before P
If you really want to know what I think the slots do for each ship, fire me an eve mail Smile

@Vimsy
AFs don't really need a propulsion mod to stay under the guns of larger targets.
Some work better than others in this respect, but the ships that don't have other strengths that outweigh.

@Cosmic
There's no argument, right now on TQ there is absolutely no need to fly an Enyo over an Ishkur. At all.
Heck, up until the Crucible patch the Ishkur was even faster than the Enyo even though it had a web to start with.
The Ishkur still remains a strong ship because of it's damage application. YES you can kill the drones (they're a bit tougher now), but you can't devalue its ability to choose its damage type. You would never bring an Enyo to fight something like a Harpy because the Ishkur has far better odds in damage application as well as fleet utility.

And by relation of the topic, the Enyo/Wolf matchup is pretty damn close. Unless said fight begins from scram range, the fight is usually in the Wolfs favour.

@Zircon
In regard to #2, if a nano cruiser is dropped on by any quick high dps ship, AF or otherwise, it's going to die in short order.
You've just described something that happens on a day to day basis that wouldn't change with this boost.

As for point #3, I was referring to nanocanes. I felt that if I had omitted them someone would of corrected me P
A gang of AFs, no matter how much better they become after this boost, is always going to be less threatening than a gang of cruisers or battlecruisers. The reason being is that they are still frigates and they can still die to the same things. That permanent reduction of threat is a big big deal.

For #4, I have no idea what they would do to the lower tier cruisers. For the most part, I think they have poor fitting which prevents them from doing anything worthwhile. Their actual abilities, layouts, and bonuses aren't too terrible for the most part.

@Liang
So bad Lol
You're someone who doesn't pvp very often, let alone mass frigates, and let alone test them.
Your comments are based solely on what you think they can do, not what they can actually do.
Go and try them out and realize how hilarious everything you just said is.

And in regard to your video;
You didn't actually showcase anything that AFs do better than any other ship. All you did was bait people into a fight, then drop the hard hitters on them at which point they typically stopped shooting at the frigates Roll
And nice work using an Arbitrator vs some turret ships. I'm sure he was hitting them just fine without that, right Roll

@placeholder
Don't be so foolish, plenty of pilots don't use their ships full bonus layout.
Hell, the entire Vexor/Ishtar have a medium hybrid damage bonus that I bet very few people actually use outside of their niche of ganking or plexing. Just because a ship gets a bonus doesn't mean you need to use it and the fact that it's there doesn't mean it isn't useful for something.

You're telling me that combat inties with only ABs are useful outside of Empire, and that the sig bonus on that ship is stupid.
You're also telling me that the bubbling abilities of the Interdictor classes make those ships useless in Empire
You're also telling me that BlOps are useless in Empire because there are no cynojammed systems for them to breach.
RollRoll

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#593 - 2012-01-12 00:28:33 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

@Liang
So bad Lol
You're someone who doesn't pvp very often, let alone mass frigates, and let alone test them.
Your comments are based solely on what you think they can do, not what they can actually do.
Go and try them out and realize how hilarious everything you just said is.

And in regard to your video;
You didn't actually showcase anything that AFs do better than any other ship. All you did was bait people into a fight, then drop the hard hitters on them at which point they typically stopped shooting at the frigates Roll
And nice work using an Arbitrator vs some turret ships. I'm sure he was hitting them just fine without that, right Roll


Amazing. PVPing from 8-9pm until 3-4am almost every day is "not PVPing very often". Even more amusing is your horrific lack of attention to detail. In the first fight of that video I tanked both the Myrmidon AND the Harbinger almost by myself. Furthermore, the killmails for both of those will reveal that I did in fact do something that other ships wouldn't be so great at. In thee second fight I warped into an armor dual neut cane and escaped.

But as I said - I'm more than capable of posting lots and lots and lots of fraps footage of me in a Harpy doing things that most of you EFT warrirors claim is "impossible". Its very simple: the 4th bonus is a welcome addition. The role bonus is a bit iffy but I wouldn't argue over it. The extra slot? Way over the top.

And ultimate I feel that much of the testing that happens on sisi is wildly inaccurate when applied to TQ. The combat that happens in either place is dramatically different and values different metrics. I am PVPing on TQ and doing very very well.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2012-01-12 00:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
For one, the Harbinger didn't start shooting at you until you were in close orbit under his guns.
He's not going to hit you there at all, even if lasers didn't already have horrible tracking.

I hate to break it to you, but escaping a dual neut cane has more to do with said cane being bad, rather than some expert piloting by you.

As I said earlier, you aren't doing much other than tackle the targets. Another Ares would have been a better choice to bring to those fights rather than your AF. You had heavy damage dealers in every fight except for the one with the Arbitrator, at which point those turret ships weren't doing anything anyways. And to hammer it down even more, the video is what we call a *gank* video. It's what the Heretics do. Why the hell do you think I left? I got tired of blobbing my enemies to death, and hoping that maybe once we'd get a fight worth working for.

And as I've said repeatedly, prove that the extra slot makes said ships overpowered.
Except for the Harpy, they don't tank significantly more than they already can (less than TQ in the Hawks case, actually).
And except for the currently low damage rocket ships, they aren't dealing significantly higher damage without some sacrifice.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#595 - 2012-01-12 00:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
By the time the Harbinger could even target me, I was well under his guns. Furthermore, he was not only running a neut and web, but also was running FMP instead of HPL. Furthermore, no matter what I bring as fraps evidence you are going to say that the people I fought "sucked". A classic No True Scottsman and/or Shifting Goalposts, really.

Ultimately what this comes down to is that I fly assault frigs on TQ every day and thus I'm in a pretty reasonable position to see how they fit into the overall ecosystem. All the sisi testing in the world isn't going to tell people who have never PVPed on TQ how they will perform on TQ.

My position is very clear: the ships need some help. They don't need recreated to be godlike power houses of doom.

-Liang

Ed: Also, you think that another ares would have been better in the Harby fight? Our only other damage dealer besides my Harpy was the Ishtar - and I'll give you two guesses who did more damage in that fight. Protip: it wasn't the Ishtar. As to calling it a "gank video" - hardly. In all of those fights we engaged what should have been easy wins for the other guys.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

m0cking bird
Doomheim
#596 - 2012-01-12 00:56:44 UTC
All frigates have high scan resolution, superior speed, and superior agility, with great acceleration as a By-product. Compared to all other class of ships. With-in their class it's not a big deal.

Currently, even if a Interceptor pilot were approaching a battle-cruiser or cruiser @ a angle. A battle-cruiser Set-up with 2 tracking enhancers and using pulse lasers or auto-cannons. That Interceptor Pilot would not be able to induce enough transversal to the point where the Interceptor would not take significant damage. When in a sustained orbit (20,000m or more). You still cannot not maintain enough transversal against a moving target. To the point where you are not taking any damage. Provided the Target is using modules above. Mind you, most Interceptors are paper thin.

The new assault frigates would be able to do the same (@ 15 - 17,000m). However, with significantly more ability to soak incoming damage. With the Option to just go into warp scrambler range and disable the targets propulsion module (micro warp drive). Could possibly just destroy the target alone. In situations where you are engaging multiple targets. A assault frigate becomes alot more survivable. Any frigate can tackle a single ship for their fleet to gank. In situations where there are multiple ships able to project damage. Interceptors get FLY SWATTED (Instant).

Assault frigates will outperform Interceptors because they're more survivable @ Interceptor engagement ranges. The extra range provided by some Interceptors are not very useful. Unless the target cannot project damage @ that range. then most any frigate with a warp disruptor will do. The closer you're to a target. The more you induce transversal. Moving away from a general shield-Hurricane set-up. Would just help that pilot track a Interceptor better.

Not hard to understand. You're giving assault frigates Interceptor like bonuses. With the effective hit-points of a cruiser.

Who wouldn't want to fly a DEIMOS or Vagabond, with the signature and velocity of a frigate. Still being able to have the effective hit-points of a cruiser. Not to mention a nice Interceptor like bonus to reduce signature radius of micro-warp drive. Cool, now a logistic ship will be able to lock these new interceptors. Instead of them just exploding to a swift breeze (Dramatic lol).


-proxyyyy
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#597 - 2012-01-12 01:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
With these proposed changes. Most assault frigates will be able to Tank significantly more than They're able to now...

Wolf (buffer increased from under 10k - 15k)
Enyo Insane active tank
Ishkur (buffer increased from under 10k - 15k) Insane active tank, while having significantly damage and projected damage.
Hawk (Insane active tank or very large buffer tank).
Harpy (buffer increased from under 10k - 15 or more)

The ones below are already able to

Vengeance (buffer & active) over 15k ehp
Jaguar (buffer) 15k ehp
Hawk (active)

These changes really just enable most all of the other assault frigates able to tank ALOT better. Retribution is the odd man out, but it can tank p well now v0v.


-proxyyyy
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#598 - 2012-01-12 01:44:41 UTC
AF's are a go. they've already posted them as a ready feature on the Crucible 1.1 page.

Overall, I have to say, I like the work Tallest is doing. I just hope he buffs medium rails soon, fixes a few ship bonuses, and Gall should be good to go.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2012-01-12 01:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
@Liang
Medium lasers have awful tracking. Period.
You were well under his tracking to start, and you didn't have any worthwhile pressure on your tank as a result.
This is why the neut on said Harb didn't have much effect when put against your trouble-free boosting injector AF.

And yes, those people *should* have been able to win with what they had. Thank you for pointing out that they were bad.
The video didn't portray you guys for being expert pilots as much as it showed how bad they were. There was no stress to indicate that it was a "really close fight", which is why it's called a gank.

I say an Ares would have been more effective because lets be honest here, that Harbingers don't exactly have the biggest active tanks. It doesn't matter how much that Ishtar actually did in relation to you because that Harbinger was never going to catch that Ishtar. All he had to do was drop drones and remain pointed, he would die. The AF wasn't exactly the linchpin of your engagement.

And yes, thank you for explaining to the class exactly what about these changes makes the AFs such unrelenting forces that need to be nerfed again before hitting TQ. Roll Some of you keep saying this but haven't actually put forth anything that isn't already possible on TQ. A few AFs that manage to land on a larger hull will kill it? No, you don't say!

@proxyyyy
lmao, what?
NONE of the ships tanks increase that much over their current TQ counterparts.
NONE of the ships can actively tank more (except Ishkur/Harpy) than they can on TQ already.
The Hawk actually has a smaller active tank than on TQ (5% bonus, not 7.5% as stated in the OP).

Stop being so foolish.

An AF can not effectively replace an Interceptors role.
Can it do it if you gimp your fit for it? Sure. Is it better than an Interceptor? Not even close.

The only turret based ship BC that really hurts tackle at range is the nano-cane. That's it.
No Harbinger that fits two tracking enhancers and FMPLs is something that's useful for anything other than swatting tackle or taking pot shots at people.

AFs cannot field & maintain a reasonable tank while MWDing and producing a long range point.
It simply doesn't work as the ships are still too slow, too weak, too cap deficient (even with injector), and too vulnerable to actually be considered as something that could overtake Interceptors.

In fact, the Jaguar (which is most likely to fill this spot), will take 5x more damage, than an Interceptor, from a run of the mill Harbinger with scorch. That doesn't even factor in drones. Lets not even begin to discuss the speed advantage for fast tacklers and the ability to tackle outside of large neut range.

By your reasoning, Faction & Pirate frigates are better tacklers than Inteceptors are.
They nearly have the AF tanks, but are waaay faster and more agile. Only the Dramiel & Firetail really come close Roll

As for a larger engagement, yes, they will both likely be swatted. That's what CCP introduced Interdictors.
Thanks for coming out though.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Zircon Dasher
#600 - 2012-01-12 02:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Hungry Eyes wrote:
AF's are a go. they've already posted them as a ready feature on the Crucible 1.1 page.

Overall, I have to say, I like the work Tallest is doing. I just hope he buffs medium rails soon, fixes a few ship bonuses, and Gall should be good to go.


WOOT WOOT!




Party is over folks. Everyone move along.

Nothing to see here.

Move along.



EDIT:

This thread got an avg. of ~85.5 posts per day.

Fun facts are fun.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.