These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2012-01-10 04:28:03 UTC
Really, Keen?

Hybrid guns & ships got a slew of boosts for the Crucible expansion, and now it looks as though Null is getting boosted as well.
As someone who primarily flys Gallente, I am exceedingly happy with the changes. If that's not enough for you, you are bad at Hybrids P

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#402 - 2012-01-10 04:33:23 UTC
Null changes? Link?
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2012-01-10 04:39:05 UTC
rails still need a lot of work. medium rails are unusable.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2012-01-10 04:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Null changes? Link?

Don't think there is a post anywhere, but right now on sisi Null is 40% falloff/optimal instead of 25%.

And also, since there is some chatter about balancing AFs with faction frigates, I'll cross post this:

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Also, in regard to faction/pirate frigates comparing to AFs:
Quote:
Enhanced for military duties, navy ships are improved combat platforms over their base tech 1 hull versions; they are meant to keep the same role (with some exceptions) than their regular versions when they have any, and only require their base race spaceship command skill set to be flown.
and
Quote:
Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them.

Source: Adding Flavour to Your Faction Meal
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=1782

So there you have it. Navy is simply better than T1, and Pirate is on par with or slightly better than T2.
Obviously, they don't state which T2 they're referring to. But if we are going to assume that they mean AFs, then yes, some of the Pirate faction ships could use a slight boost. Namely the Cruor, Worm, & Succubus.

Even though the pirate stuff is generally killed by the AFs, there ARE situations where the pirate frigates have excellent odds.
For example; Cruor vs cap turreted ships, Worm vs range lacking ships, Succubus vs ships weak to lasers

The Daredevil & Dramiel are still prized for their abilities and I can see them as being 'on par' with AFs for the most part.
The three others could use some more dps, and the succubus specifically could use some more speed or agility.

Just thought this should be put out there. Navy is below T2, Pirate should be 'equal' to T2.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#405 - 2012-01-10 06:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
To anyone with a bit of foresight, it seems to be a really bad idea to just buff over any weakness for ships that are already go to frigs for frigate sized fights.


Vengeance, oh the one with the incredible tank but not so much dps? Let's give it more dps !

Let's give the similarly fashioned Hawk an even bigger tank and dps as well while we're in the mood !

enyo has the most dps potential out of all af's, but lacking a web slot... hmm lets give it room for a web and bigger armor buffer to boot !

Wolf has great range , tank and dps , but has trouble hitting fast targets up close... hmmm tracking bonus oughta fix that ! and throw in a bit more armor tank and an extra low slot while we're at it !







sidenote: It almost seems pointless to make cohorent posts in this thread, as Sawa / Prom will argue against them no matter what reasonable points you bring to the table.... i predict this post to get dismantled once again by a bunch of poorly thought out reasons explaining why vengeances and wolves etc need improving...

if you don't realise how opening a free slot for sooth sayer booster on a ship with an already boosted falloff = more dps for a frigate with no web, then i suggest go open a couple of dps charts on eft and think about some reasonable scenarios. And to the other guy who keeps saying his testing on SiSi is evidence, testing in which he refuses to test AF's vs anything but other AF's, and not in 1v1's, to see how well their tank holds up when primaried in a fleet battle,,, well, you've clearly decided not to listen to any form of reasonable criticism and are just sticking to your guns on your ideas for assault frigates. Maybe you should stop posting in here as you've made it quite clear from the first few pages all the way to the end that your opinion is biased and you are just going to defend these changes no matter what evidence is presented to you. As others have said, your opinion is kinda irrelevant now and you are just making yourself look.. really bad. I can understand that it can be hard when nobody thinks your idea is a brilliant as you do, but just accept that they may not quite be the best thing since sliced bread and move on from it.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2012-01-10 06:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
  • As it has been stated above, the Vengenace may have a bit too much damage.
  • The Hawk doesn't have a bigger tank, it's actually the smaller than it is on TQ. Wake up. The boosting bonus was reduced to 5% and the ship doesnt have enough fitting for a truly dangerous passive tank.
  • Nobody is arguing FOR the Enyo to keep its 200 extra armor. They are either indifferent or want it removed. Looking at the damage numbers is only half of the story as the ship is still a cap sensitive brick that gets **** on by anyone who wants it dead. Want to have high dps? Enjoy your lack of tank.
  • The Wolf isn't overpowered like you are implying lmao. It's damage & range isn't terribly high while tanked, and when it is, the ship is easily killed.

    • If that last bit is directed @ me, I'm not flying them soley for "1v1s" on the test server.
    I'm not even putting them ONLY against AFs. I fit a ship, and I pick a battlefield.
    And for trying to discredit those of us actually testing them in various engagement types, we are doing far more than those of you who are sitting back and complaining without putting in the hours.

    You're in no position to discredit anything or anyone. You haven't been testing, and you have been merely looking at the numbers. Play the game.
    You aren't presenting any evidence. Everything that has been said in this thread to discredit the changes has been hearsay, any not actually proven. If you think that your AFs are the **** and will walk all over cruisers, go do it!

    I for one have been having great success and failure with the AFs, and at the same time have been having great success and failure against the AFs with my bog standard cruiser fit. The good pilots managed to kill me, the bad pilots died quickly.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    Bob Niac
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #407 - 2012-01-10 06:21:33 UTC
    Prom I don't get it... why do you keep trying to sell this change? It seems like people that are reading this have made up their mind one way or the other.

    Close the sale and be done with it.

    [u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
    Thorasta Tithe
    Smash Mouth Industries
    #408 - 2012-01-10 06:31:15 UTC
    if they need their own role - how about 10%/level web immunity?

    (and of course, the extra slot for the retri)
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #409 - 2012-01-10 06:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
    Bob Niac wrote:
    Prom I don't get it... why do you keep trying to sell this change? It seems like people that are reading this have made up their mind one way or the other.

    Close the sale and be done with it.
    If it were up to me it'd be done and up by now P
    I'm pushing this because a large number of complaints are coming from people who are just looking at it and deciding they don't like it. Those who have come on the server and fiddled around have noted that the changes are actually pretty decent.

    Thorasta Tithe wrote:
    if they need their own role - how about 10%/level web immunity?

    The dead horse says no.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #410 - 2012-01-10 06:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
  • You aren't presenting any evidence. Everything that has been said in this thread to discredit the changes has been hearsay, any not actually proven. If you think that your AFs are the **** and will walk all over cruisers, go do it!

    I for one have been having great success and failure with the AFs, and at the same time have been having great success and failure against the AFs with my bog standard cruiser fit. The good pilots managed to kill me, the bad pilots died quickly.


    What the hell are you saying? I don't think AF's will walk all over cruisers at all, i think an AF would have to be even more ludicrously buffed to have a consistant shot at that. My entire post was about what AF's will do in relation to other frigate fights, and if they are OP in their tier or not. So that's what your goal is here? buffing AF's to the point that they can to stand up against cruisers? smh Roll

    Don't use how they fare against ships 2 sizes above them, built for frig killing, as reason to suggest that they need buff. That's just ********. And in hindsight thats the only real reason you have defending your lust for AF boosts. You are trying to fashion them in particular into frigates that can take on Cruisers.... thats not, and should not be there role, just because you decided that its too hard to solo a cruiser in a frig, is no reason to give AssShips a massive advantage against everything else their own size
    DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #411 - 2012-01-10 06:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    Bob Niac wrote:
    Prom I don't get it... why do you keep trying to sell this change? It seems like people that are reading this have made up their mind one way or the other.

    Close the sale and be done with it.
    If it were up to me it'd be done and up by now P
    I'm pushing this because a large number of complaints are coming from people who are just looking at it and deciding they don't like it. Those who have come on the server and fiddled around have noted that the changes are actually pretty decent.


    Nice generalization there .... as far as I saw, people said that the changes were just as OP on a lot of AF's, but did change there stance againt some such as Ishkur and Jag, that they weren't so crazy, just mostly unnecessary... fact is that even if one of the changes makes a frigate OP in it's size, then it is NOT A GOOD CHANGE. We've just nerfed down one OP frigate to the point that it's managable, these changes now are really really dumb


    oh yes, and i have no doubt that if were up to you that changes would already be in effect. Absorbing feedback and response does not seem to be your strong suit.

    PS Jumping on SiSi now. And I will promise to approach this with an OPEN mind, unlike you I have no bias in the situation, and my only goal is wanting the best for assault frigs
    Sylvous
    Bigger than Jesus
    #412 - 2012-01-10 06:53:16 UTC
    @ Prometheus Exenthal

    I am sure you realize that you are trying to put AF's into a role that they are not supposed to fill right?

    AF's are meant for small skirmish and solo pvp. You are throwing them into a role that is meant to be filled by other ships. Of course a frigate is not going to survive if it is called primary. So don't try throwing it into that situation because it doesn't belong. It's like wondering why my battleship doesn't mine as fast as a hulk. Obvious answer is to boost the mining yields on a bs right? NO, GET A SHIP THAT FITS THE SCENARIO.

    And as it is, the scenario that fits AF's is solo and small gang PvP. So testing it in other environments should not be necessary, an interesting thought experiment at most, but not pivotal for finding the strengths and weaknesses of the ship.

    On that note, the extra slots can go, the extra HP can go, the added bonus's are too powerful and should be made much smaller, the role bonus doesn't really help the role that a AF has, the +10CPU is not a game breaking addition.
    The one exception to the above is the retri, remove a high slot add a mid.

    Also I agree with you on this:

    @ Thorasta Tithe

    NO
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #413 - 2012-01-10 07:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
    @Darkstar
    Which AF is the OP one again? I'm sorry I must have missed the post or something.
    Yes, AFs should be able to stand toe to toe against T1 cruisers. T1 cruisers should have the edge (they do), but it shouldn't be a guaranteed loss for the AF (like it is on TQ). AFs are only viable with an afterburner in low sec, and said afterburner is useless in lawless space. If you want a true comparison, fit up a ship on TQ and go roam 00 with an ab and then mwd fit and see how successful you are.

    By extension, what are HACs supposed to go against if not larger ships like BCs?
    If I want to roam around in my HAC should my fancy hull be restricted to T1 Cruisers?
    Think about that for a second, then think about the AF to Cruiser scenario.

    BTW, sisi is down atm.

    @Sylvous
    Go try them out before you post some more nonsense .

    What situations are you talking about exactly? My AF should never leave empire?
    You're trying to tell me that there is already a heavy tanking / high dps frigate that suits my needs?
    What is this frigate, and how can get one Roll

    The slots and 4th bonuses balance the AFs across themselves.
    There are no longer BAD AFs, as they are all equally good. They have their own strengths and weaknesses.

    The role bonus is to balance the AFs across the other ships in the game.
    They are no long restricted to one tiny niche, and can be used anywhere without becoming coffins upon exiting low sec.
    For those of you who have only ever lived/fought in empire, and have never spent a good chunk of time in lawless space, you won't understand that concept. No amount of posting is going to change your mind, no matter how accurate the posting is. So keep on rocking in the dream world.

    Any arguments against the changes are founded in hyperbole and powered by fear-mongering.
    If you think something is broken or too powerful, go and prove it. I'll be sitting here waiting to disprove it happily.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    Cuko
    Shadowflame Cartel
    #414 - 2012-01-10 07:23:59 UTC
    I've downgraded the armour repair from complex C-type small armour repairs. Even so, there is no non active Hawk set-up able to engage this Ishkur set-up and win (with the current changes, except one). Without leaving warp scrambler range and focusing on killing drones. Which becomes difficult under good drone management. What I'm talking about is meta 4 warp disruptor, afterburner and dual stasis webifier on a Hawk. Not to mention Ecm drones. So, pretty much provided a Hawk could kill drones before its buffer runs out.

    I'm not going to go into rail set-ups to much. Once you do though. The Hawk will be burned @ ranges up to 13 (300 damage per second with these changes). In a rail Ishkur*

    There is no wolf set-up that can oppose this Ishkur set-up, toe to toe. There is a Enyo set-up that is similar. However, it requires a serious loss in damage to compete and has no selectable damage or the use of multiple ECM drones.

    Enyo

    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    [Empty High slot]

    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters

    Damage Control II
    Small Armor Repairer II
    Small Armor Repairer II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

    Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
    Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I


    Hobgoblin II x1

    Only the Vengeance poses a serious challenge and that's with a small neutraliser, while attempting to mitigate damage. This is all provided the other ship does not run away some how. The Wolf has no real ability to deal with set-ups like this toe to toe. The other issue is. The Ishkur maintains alot of damage like most drone ships while being able to mitigate damage actively. I suggest trying these.

    Ishkur

    Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
    Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
    Warp Scrambler II

    Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
    Armor Explosive Hardener II
    Damage Control II
    Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I

    Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
    Small Anti-EM Pump I


    Warrior II x5


    -proxyyyy
    DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #415 - 2012-01-10 07:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    I don't quite think your are listening to the point here.

    AF is a low sec ship ... giving these buffs may improve it for null sec, but it will completely unbalance it in low... I'm not saying that your changes don't make them more viable in null, which may be a good change, but at the cost of completely unbalancing lowsec frigate PVP, its not a fair trade off. You need to consider more things than just escaping bubbles and zooming around the field in fleet battles, and being more useful for tackling cruisers+. AF's are THE low sec pvp frigate. Making it more powerful in the current zone where it already excels, just to improve it in one where it doesnt see as much play currently, is bad. You need to do the latter without doing the former. How hard is this to understand Prom




    *knows that this post is pointless and awaits another post explaining why AF's need to be moucho improved for null sec no matter what the cost is to low*
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #416 - 2012-01-10 07:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
    @proxyyyy
    So what exactly is the point of your setups?
    You can't keep any frigates pinned, and Cruisers (with or without neuts) will absolutely shred while being faster than you.
    Good work What?


    @Darkstar
    AFs are THE low sec pvp frigate because they are god-awful at everything else.
    The hazards in low sec are significantly less threatening. IE: You can dock anywhere you want, there are no bubbles, there are very limited blobs etc..

    Your argument is like saying T1 frigates are too powerful because you can kill interceptors with them.
    The imbalance to low sec will last a week before people adapt.

    AFs aren't balanced towards T1 frigates, they are superior.
    AFs aren't replacing the roles of any other T2 frigates.
    AFs aren't replacing T1 Cruisers, they will still die to them unless expertly flown.

    Where is this imbalance?
    Are you complaining that people will fly Jags & Wolves over Rifters? That is an awfully useless point to make because that's kinda what people do. T2 ships are better than T1 ships.

    I fly a Deimos over a Thorax because it is better.
    Does that Thorax stand a chance against my Deimos? No way.
    Does that mean it's imbalanced? No.
    Does the fact that HACs easily kill Recons/HICtors/Logi make them OP? No.

    I fly a Thorax when my wallet runs low, just like how skilled players will go back to Rifters when they realize that 20+mil is a lot to throw away every time. Think about it; If you lose 5 Rifters a day, that's nothing. If you lose 5 Jaguars a day, that's 100mil.

    Seriously, think about what you're trying to say here.
    Do you fly an Atron instead of an Ares when you need fast tackle?

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    Cuko
    Shadowflame Cartel
    #417 - 2012-01-10 07:48:25 UTC
    These set-ups have less than half the effective hit points of a Cynabal. Without gang-links or implants. I'm choosing the assault frigates that are difficult to get these values out of now. Instead of posting set-ups for a Vengeance or Jaguar. However, they're still able around 15, 000 effective hit points or more. Plus! Interceptor, like bonuses. Explain to me how these ships, that are in fact faster than most ships above frigates. Will not be used for tackle? Eve pilots are in love with survivability. Would they choose the most survivable T2 frigates to fly over all others? Funny thing is. You do not even suffer that much on damage compared to what we have now, with these changes. After fitting so much tank. Silly that these things have more tank than T2 destroyers.


    Ishkur 2,000m/sec 15, 000 ehp

    75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
    75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
    75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
    [Empty High slot]

    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
    Warp Disruptor II
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

    Damage Control II
    400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Adaptive Nano Plating II

    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Ancillary Current Router I


    Hobgoblin II x5

    Harpy 2,200m/sec 15, 000 ehp

    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    [Empty High slot]

    Medium Shield Extender II
    Medium Shield Extender II
    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

    Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
    Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
    Damage Control II

    Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
    Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

    Enyo, 1,900/sec 16, 000 ehp

    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
    [Empty High slot]

    J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
    Warp Disruptor II
    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters

    Damage Control II
    400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
    Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
    Adaptive Nano Plating II

    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Trimark Armor Pump I


    Hobgoblin II x1


    Wolf, 2,100 m/sec 15, 000 ehp

    150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
    150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
    150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
    150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
    [Empty High slot]

    Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

    Damage Control II
    400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
    Adaptive Nano Plating II
    Adaptive Nano Plating II
    Gyrostabilizer II

    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Trimark Armor Pump I


    -proxyyyy
    DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #418 - 2012-01-10 07:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
    Prom, that is one of the most moronic posts I've seen you make.

    You think because something is the stronger than another ship, that buffing it even further makes no difference?

    That because Cynabal is already better than Vaga, it wont make a difference to buff up its ehp, damage, speed, sig, and slots?

    AF's are stronger then t1 frigs / faction frigs at the moment, and there is a fine balance there. Considerably buffing them further DOES make a difference , and DOES make them overpowered.
    Prometheus Exenthal
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #419 - 2012-01-10 08:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
    AFs have always been intended as big-game hunters, hitting well above their weight. Complaining that they now kill interceptors that come in tackle range is just being plain stupid.


    @Proxxyyy / Cuko
    I can tell you exactly why those won't be used for tackle. They are SLOW.

    Do you seriously expect any self respecting cruiser pilot to die to those abominations?
    You are slow and fat (for a frigate), and you have zero range control. ANY Cruiser remains faster than you once they have their web/scram on you. Stop looking at eft/pyfa and go TRY and fly those.

    Edit: Off-topic part removed, CCP Phantom.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

    DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
    m0cking bird
    Doomheim
    #420 - 2012-01-10 08:10:07 UTC
    Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
    @proxyyyy
    So what exactly is the point of your setups?
    You can't keep any frigates pinned, and Cruisers (with or without neuts) will absolutely shred while being faster than you.
    Good work What?

    Seriously, think about what you're trying to say here.
    Do you fly an Atron instead of an Ares when you need fast tackle?



    Could say the same about the Enyo and Wolf now as far as not being able "keep any frigates pinned". Since I've already pointed that out in my post. Why you would rephrase my own statements I cannot fathom. As many set-ups have the same issue and work just fine currently. Many of them you must have engaged or flown (beyond silly and a waste of time).

    As far as the cruiser comment (lol wut?). What cruisers @ which base speed are you referring to? I could only assume base speed if you go into warp scrambler range. Then I would assume you're referring to a cruiser applying a stasis webifier. Even so. how many of those do you see around any more( lol if you are reading this part I just wasted your time)? I'm responding even though I was referring to frigate engagements. Not once did I bring up cruisers in my post. Here's a cool argument.

    So what is your point? Any frigate put in a situation not optimal. Might be destroyed. Like, flying Vengeance into a fleet of 30 Harbingers using pulse lasers... Whatever.

    I think I was kind in this response to the absurd lack of points you were raising in what I believe was a question. However, I'm not sure.

    Anyway, whatever. These changes have some issues that should be looked @ closely.


    -proxyyyy