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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Author
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2012-01-07 23:06:32 UTC
AFs and Faction frigates offer different advantages/disadvantages.

Destoyers/Interdictors > AFs
For Interdictors, they need balancing to begin with but I can assure you that they are still very capable of shredding AFs.

As for the Hawk, I'm not sure what planet you're living on where the Hawk is ridiculous.
If you want to dump billions into it tank like a monster, go right ahead. You're still not invulnerable, not by a long shot.
Yes rockets are decent now, but not on the Hawk. Try putting an AB Hawk against an AB Ishkur right now on TQ and see how far you get without a web or tank. Or maybe a Daredevil or Dramiel or Worm.

Are swarms of them going to shred a single target? Yes.
Are swarms of them capable of killing targets on TQ right now? Yes.

So feel free to flesh out your reasoning behind slots balancing breaking.
It's one thing to say that's what will happen, and it's something else entirely to actually prove it.
My experience with them on sisi is that they are just fine. They are still quite killable by BCs & Cruisers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Alex Medvedov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2012-01-07 23:36:07 UTC
[
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
AFs and Faction frigates offer different advantages/disadvantages.

Destoyers/Interdictors > AFs
For Interdictors, they need balancing to begin with but I can assure you that they are still very capable of shredding AFs.

As for the Hawk, I'm not sure what planet you're living on where the Hawk is ridiculous.
If you want to dump billions into it tank like a monster, go right ahead. You're still not invulnerable, not by a long shot.
Yes rockets are decent now, but not on the Hawk. Try putting an AB Hawk against an AB Ishkur right now on TQ and see how far you get without a web or tank. Or maybe a Daredevil or Dramiel or Worm.

Are swarms of them going to shred a single target? Yes.
Are swarms of them capable of killing targets on TQ right now? Yes.

So feel free to flesh out your reasoning behind slots balancing breaking.
It's one thing to say that's what will happen, and it's something else entirely to actually prove it.
My experience with them on sisi is that they are just fine. They are still quite killable by BCs & Cruisers.


Thats your main problem - you are judging from several fights on sisi where not many people can actully fly AF well and even if they do they didnt have much time to think through their setups.

Iam not arguing with you about blobs and i am not arguing that AFs are becoming too strong in relation to Cruisers or BCs.
What I see as a problem and you are still failing to realize is 1v1 AF balancing and blasncing the AFs as a class with Destroyers and faction frigs and other smaller vessels. You keep saying that those slot additions are not balance breaking but you have never explained why do you think they are nessesary at the first place (other than rocket are crap, and therefore Hawk needs 5th mid slot - statement iam stronghly disagree with)

Please keep in mind that tactics and fitting used in 0.0 and low-sec are quite different and 2double web hawk might not seem to be viable for 0.0 but its simply perfect choice against all AFs in 1v1 combat in low-sec(excluding the Wolf probably).
Moreover iam not sure if any destroyer will be able to kill a boosted wolf, and on the other hand iam quite sure pasiive/active hawk is able to kill an iskhur nowadays.

But iam not interested in discussing what ship can or cannot kill what - iam saying that theres NO REASON for opening this can of worms (putting AF slots back and forth)
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2012-01-07 23:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
I'll be completely honest and say that I never suggested adding more slots, but now they are here and they aren't broken.

Yes, judging everything off sisi is not the best method.
Yes, a large number of people there can't tell their face from their ass.
The solution there is to get people testing the ships. TRY and break them. That's the whole point of testing.
There's no reason complaining about the quality of testers when the so-called pros are just talking smack from the sidelines without pitching in.

It doesn't take much to find something broken or unsavory in a change being tested.
Remember when the Deimos had 4 mids? That didn't last very long (thank god).
Heck, the AB bonus didnt last long because they were so obviously overpowering.
SO FAR nothing game breaking has been revealed with these changes. And changing the pvp landscape does not count has *game breaking* when said changes are simply countered.

In regard to rockets again, I never said they are crap.
On TQ, the vengeance is the better ship not because of it's tank, but because you can apply your tank and dps without sacrifice. The Hawk cannot. And as for dual webs and such, yes there are some niche fits that work in particular situations.
But you can't base that type of reasoning for blasting the extra slot. A huge number of ships can destroy that, including the new AFs.

Some fits won't be ideal anymore, so new ones will be made and some will be better than others.
That's the way it goes.

edit: double web talos hurts like a ***** Lol

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

seller1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#284 - 2012-01-08 00:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: seller1122
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:


Yes, judging everything off sisi is not the best method.
Yes, a large number of people there can't tell their face from their ass.



You realise a large number of the pilots who are actually supporting your ideas are the ones who are testing them on sisi >.<

So congrats at insulting a fair chunk of the people supporting you (myself included) ....
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2012-01-08 00:48:40 UTC
It's a double-edged sword. I'm not saying everyone is bad, but you have to work with the assumption.

If a monkey can slap together a ship and be nigh-immune to half the battlefield, then there is a problem (AB bonus).
That problem has yet to rear its head on sisi, even with all the changes.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Kalaratiri
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#286 - 2012-01-08 01:17:59 UTC
I'd just like to say, to the people trying to fit t2 scrams on everything, the j5b uses far less cpu for about 500m or so range. The tradeoff is both practical, and common. t2 =/= always better. Sometimes you have to drop a few hundred metres to make a fit work Smile

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Plutonian
Intransigent
#287 - 2012-01-08 04:13:24 UTC
seller1122 wrote:
So congrats at insulting a fair chunk of the people supporting you (myself included) ....

Dude... are you surprised? He's insulted just about everyone here throughout the entire thread.

When I read his posts I hear them in Eric Cartman's voice in my head. Lol
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2012-01-08 04:21:34 UTC
Ugh
It's not personal or anything, I'm just telling it how it is P
It's mass testing, nobody is a special snowflake.
Things either do or don't work. And on sisi, AFs work.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#289 - 2012-01-08 06:09:37 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello


Vengance

* Added bonus: -5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level


Small but important part.

You can't, CAN NOT, have a negative bonus. A 5% bonus to rate of fire is a 5% reduction in cycle time. A -5% bonus, is a penalty. So, effectively you're saying a 5% penalty per level to launcher rate of fire.

CCP, please train English to V.
Plutonian
Intransigent
#290 - 2012-01-08 07:42:36 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Ugh
It's not personal or anything, I'm just telling it how it is P
It's mass testing, nobody is a special snowflake.
Things either do or don't work. And on sisi, AFs work.


Relax. Just having some fun.

And you're quite wrong... I am a very special little snowflake. My mommie told me so... so I know it has to be true. Lol


ITT: Empire, Lowsec, and Nullsec are forced to share ships but find they can't get along. Blink
Anna Liebert
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2012-01-08 11:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Liebert
25% bonus to AF is enough. In fact, all AF add 25% sounds good.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#292 - 2012-01-08 12:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Marian Devers
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
AFs and Faction frigates offer different advantages/disadvantages.

Destoyers/Interdictors > AFs
For Interdictors, they need balancing to begin with but I can assure you that they are still very capable of shredding AFs.

As for the Hawk, I'm not sure what planet you're living on where the Hawk is ridiculous.
If you want to dump billions into it tank like a monster, go right ahead. You're still not invulnerable, not by a long shot.
Yes rockets are decent now, but not on the Hawk. Try putting an AB Hawk against an AB Ishkur right now on TQ and see how far you get without a web or tank. Or maybe a Daredevil or Dramiel or Worm.

Are swarms of them going to shred a single target? Yes.
Are swarms of them capable of killing targets on TQ right now? Yes.

So feel free to flesh out your reasoning behind slots balancing breaking.
It's one thing to say that's what will happen, and it's something else entirely to actually prove it.
My experience with them on sisi is that they are just fine. They are still quite killable by BCs & Cruisers.


A Flycatcher can kill these new AF? A Heretic? A Slicer?

Im sure larger class ships can still kill AF - im worrying about killing them in anything smaller than a cruiser.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#293 - 2012-01-08 14:07:57 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:


A Flycatcher can kill these new AF? A Heretic? A Slicer?

Im sure larger class ships can still kill AF - im worrying about killing them in anything smaller than a cruiser.


By Interdictor he meant Sabre, as thats the only one that puts out any reasonable amount of damage.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2012-01-08 18:39:50 UTC
Flycatcher can, but it's a bit shoddy because of the Kinetic only.
Sabre works, obviously.
Eris works, but depends on the fit
Heretic works pretty well because it's basically a Vengeance with MOAR ROCKETS.

My Slicers don't have too much trouble taking care of the non-Minmatar

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Plutonian
Intransigent
#295 - 2012-01-08 19:19:21 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
As for the Hawk, I'm not sure what planet you're living on where the Hawk is ridiculous.


I, too, look forward to flying the new mini-Blackbird/assault Keres. Blink
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-01-08 19:29:45 UTC
I don't know what you're going to disrupt with 1-2 unbonused damps/jammers, but I'd feel bad for the first person to do it who gets shredded by a Rifter.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#297 - 2012-01-08 19:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The Role Bonus to MWD is very poor.


It's usage for MWDs would only be used a minority of the time, not really a "defining element" or a ROLE Bonus.


The Role Bonus would be used to burn in really quickly to get the MWD turned off. Also, it piggy backs on the INTERCEPTOR bonus which is already being used MORE EFFECTIVELY than an AF bonus.


Assault Frigates shouldn't be "more interceptors" which is all this bonus will do. This bonus will only promote longer sniper fit Assault Frigate fits, rather than the close range support roles that they are currently the best at doing. Also, they are NEVER going to be as effective as Snipers across the board as ANY OTHER larger ship, including the Heavy Kiters such as the Vagabond - which IRONICALLY are the ONLY SHIPS this bonus really helps with, by being able to MWD into heavy kiter range more effectively to gain tackle, these ships are the only ships that would be effective against those kiters, again - a minority usage scenario.


The MWD Bonus is totally ineffectual as a ROLE BONUS. It doesn't DEFINE the role of an Assault Frigate anymore than any other ship. Unless of course you expect them to all become 20+km snipers (which other ships will and can do better in general)


THE MOST Dangerous Thing to an Assault Frigate are Neutralizers. Across the board, it doesn't matter what ship you're up against, the Neutralizer will disable an Assault Frigate IMMEDIATELY. So it doesn't matter if you can MWD or not - you're going to get it disabled because most ships fit neutralizers just to kill small ships easily!


I don't care what you think the Role Bonus will successfully accomplish - when you have 50 ships in Null Sec trying to shoot at you with a 50% bloom reduction, you are DEAD. Only interceptors with their speed and superior MWD bloom reduction have a CHANCE (chance) of even making it there in time. Not to mention, any competent FC who has an assault frigate squad would never tell them "MWD those 40km to get there".

You'd send your INTERCEPTOR over (which is faster) to get into warp in position, then warp in your AF fleet into close range. Alternately - you'd use Combat Scanner Probes.


This bonus does not help define AFs.


I recommend a resistance to Webifier effectiveness, a resistance to Neutralizers - a general reduction to signature radius, regardless of MWD or not.

Where I am.

Plutonian
Intransigent
#298 - 2012-01-08 19:46:45 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
I don't know what you're going to disrupt with 1-2 unbonused damps/jammers, but I'd feel bad for the first person to do it who gets shredded by a Rifter.


Dude... took on a Merlin and never got a lock during the entire fight.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14864691

(Can we post our own killmails? Guess CCP will pull it if not...)
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2012-01-08 19:59:29 UTC
That's more of an ECM issue than a "lolol this ship is so strong" type of thing.
You're going to have a hard time chewing through AFs fast enough. You're really just making it easier for yourself to gank T1 frigates, which isn't a really a big deal when they already do that P

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Plutonian
Intransigent
#300 - 2012-01-08 20:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Plutonian
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
That's more of an ECM issue than a "lolol this ship is so strong" type of thing.
You're going to have a hard time chewing through AFs fast enough. You're really just making it easier for yourself to gank T1 frigates, which isn't a really a big deal when they already do that P


Point I'm attempting to make is that any midslot added over the magic number three on a frigate becomes a force multiplier. They should be added with caution.

And the fact that there exists an 'ECM issue' is not being debated. However, while this issue exists, the new Hawk is affected by it.