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War dec exploit - CCP comment???

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2012-01-05 11:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Valei Khurelem wrote:

Why haven't you given peaceful corporations the option of blocking war declarations? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just gankers who want things to stay the same so they can get easy industrial kills in high sec.


CCP Has. You just have to pay an 11% Tax and are unable to set up a POS.

The reason player corps can't block war decs are many.
1. Eve embraces nonconsensual PvP
2. If I could turn off wardecs, I'd put an offline POS on Every Single Hisec Moon and sell them at exorbitant prices. (If you need a resource a competitor has, EVE is meant to allow you to take it)
3. Many other reasons.

Full Disclosure: I have never been in a Corp with an offensive wardec active. I have advised some friends on how to war dec another corp in order to take down their POS, but that was after I moved to Null.

EDIT: Actually, staying in station 24/7 is another valid way of blocking wardecs.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#22 - 2012-01-05 11:28:10 UTC
I was going to post something really rude and demeaning, but the guy above me put it so succinctly I simply lost the ability to post in a mean tone. So I'll simply go with "What he said!"

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#23 - 2012-01-05 11:32:40 UTC
Ancy Denaries wrote:
I was going to post something really rude and demeaning, but the guy above me put it so succinctly I simply lost the ability to post in a mean tone. So I'll simply go with "What he said!"


Now I should Edit the post to totally reverse my position.

The Edit feature's why I quote so many posts I respond to.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#24 - 2012-01-05 11:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Xtover
Wait we wardecced who?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#25 - 2012-01-05 11:48:59 UTC
Joining an alliance while wardecced is the best. If your about to join an alliance, you should always try and gather as many tiny little corps wardeccing you as possible, just to laugh while they frantically cancel their decs when they get the massive spam of being decced suddenly to an alliance.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#26 - 2012-01-05 14:49:00 UTC
Xtover wrote:
Wait we wardecced who?


Lonetrek, from what I hear.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-01-05 14:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Why haven't you given peaceful corporations the option of blocking war declarations? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just gankers who want things to stay the same so they can get easy industrial kills in high sec.
Because making yourself a target for wardecs means you're also given access to a number of features and functions that comes in direct competition with the activities of other players, and those other players need to have a way to stop you from making use of those features.

You can't take part in the motor race if you don't want to face the risk of driving head-long into a wall at high speed and exploding. It's the cost of doing business. Don't want to pay the cost? Then you don't get to do business.

Unfortunately, the GM's policy decision has broken the actual game mechanics to the core, so you now have the option to get the best of both worlds. With some luck, this will change soon and their ill-advised decision will be reversed.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#28 - 2012-01-05 15:07:22 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
GM Lelouch wrote:
A corporation/alliance will always have to wait for 24 hours before aggressions can begin at the start of a war, there is no way to bypass this timer, war retraction shenanigans will not actually achieve this.

A corporation will however continue to be involved in a war for 24 hours after leaving a warring alliance. Notifications such as the ones in this thread are sent out in such an event, but they are sadly not very descriptive at all so it is quite easy to mistake them for an exploit while everything is actually in order.


In this particular instance, AAA (corporation) was a member of CCC (alliance), an alliance which was at war with BBB (alliance). AAA left CCC at 2012.01.04 23:43 (the time at which the notifications were sent) and will therefore continue to be at war with any entities CCC was at war with for a period of 24 hours. Note that AAA was already at war with these entities before through their membership of CCC.

Finally, if any of CCC's wars had started less than 24 hours ago, it would mean that AAA would not be at war with them until that stasis period ends. For example, if CCC had declared war on DDD at 2012.01.04 23:00, both CCC and AAA wouldn't be able to fire upon DDD targets until 2012.01.05 23:43. AAA would in other words only be at war for 43 minutes before their involvement ends as they left the CCC alliance the day before.


Why haven't you given peaceful corporations the option of blocking war declarations? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just gankers who want things to stay the same so they can get easy industrial kills in high sec.


Why haven't they given Pvpers the option to buy everything at NPC price? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just carebears who want things to stay they same so they can get easy industrial profits in high sec.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jaldard
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-01-05 15:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaldard
Malcanis wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
GM Lelouch wrote:
A corporation/alliance will always have to wait for 24 hours before aggressions can begin at the start of a war, there is no way to bypass this timer, war retraction shenanigans will not actually achieve this.

A corporation will however continue to be involved in a war for 24 hours after leaving a warring alliance. Notifications such as the ones in this thread are sent out in such an event, but they are sadly not very descriptive at all so it is quite easy to mistake them for an exploit while everything is actually in order.


In this particular instance, AAA (corporation) was a member of CCC (alliance), an alliance which was at war with BBB (alliance). AAA left CCC at 2012.01.04 23:43 (the time at which the notifications were sent) and will therefore continue to be at war with any entities CCC was at war with for a period of 24 hours. Note that AAA was already at war with these entities before through their membership of CCC.

Finally, if any of CCC's wars had started less than 24 hours ago, it would mean that AAA would not be at war with them until that stasis period ends. For example, if CCC had declared war on DDD at 2012.01.04 23:00, both CCC and AAA wouldn't be able to fire upon DDD targets until 2012.01.05 23:43. AAA would in other words only be at war for 43 minutes before their involvement ends as they left the CCC alliance the day before.


Why haven't you given peaceful corporations the option of blocking war declarations? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just gankers who want things to stay the same so they can get easy industrial kills in high sec.


Why haven't they given Pvpers the option to buy everything at NPC price? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just carebears who want things to stay they same so they can get easy industrial profits in high sec.
Why haven't they given unicorn ponies the option to dance on rainbows? I want to hear the reasoning from CCP on this and not just awkward analogies from people who want things to stay they same and keep the common sense out of this game.

but seriously, although I can understand the necessity of allowing players to destroy high-sec POS and stuff, war-decs are still a lame and ridiculously wrong solution, not to mention the role-play inconsistencies.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-01-05 15:57:26 UTC
Non consensual PvP - whether conducted with guns or over the market screen - is a core tenet of the game.

I'd be the last to disagree that the whole wardec system is horribly broken and needs to be completely reworked, but not at the price of just allowing corps to say "nuh-uh, don't wanna".

As said above, the risk of a wardec goes with the reward of having corp facilities.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2012-01-05 16:11:24 UTC
Jaldard wrote:
but seriously, although I can understand the necessity of allowing players to destroy high-sec POS and stuff, war-decs are still a lame and ridiculously wrong solution, not to mention the role-play inconsistencies.


What RP inconsistencies? You bribe CONCORD to look the other way while you murder the shit out of people. CONCORD gives people notice to allow them to keep some semblance of legitimacy.

CONCORD is colluding with the NPC corps to run a protection racket, and the dumb muscle is paying for the privilege of being the racket's stick.

And EVE is, always has been, and is meant to be a lawless game universe. The fact that the only rule in Hisec is not to violence people's boats, and that rule can be sidestepped and its consequences mitigated emphasizes that.


Out of Game, *All* of the Eve advertising focuses on the PvP content of the game. You can try to play EVE in pure PvE mode, but it's not officially supported or endorsed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#32 - 2012-01-05 16:19:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Xtover wrote:
Wait we wardecced who?


Lonetrek, from what I hear.

Aye, that we have



Then again my sec status has dropped like a rock. (+4 to pushing -2)
Jaldard
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-01-05 17:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaldard
RubyPorto wrote:
Jaldard wrote:
but seriously, although I can understand the necessity of allowing players to destroy high-sec POS and stuff, war-decs are still a lame and ridiculously wrong solution, not to mention the role-play inconsistencies.


What RP inconsistencies? You bribe CONCORD to look the other way while you murder the shit out of people. CONCORD gives people notice to allow them to keep some semblance of legitimacy.

CONCORD is colluding with the NPC corps to run a protection racket, and the dumb muscle is paying for the privilege of being the racket's stick.

And EVE is, always has been, and is meant to be a lawless game universe. The fact that the only rule in Hisec is not to violence people's boats, and that rule can be sidestepped and its consequences mitigated emphasizes that.


Out of Game, *All* of the Eve advertising focuses on the PvP content of the game. You can try to play EVE in pure PvE mode, but it's not officially supported or endorsed.
I have to admit you nailed it rather well by comparing concord and organised crime.

But in that case, I have to disagree with the "lawless" thing, it's certainly not a "lawless" universe, it's a universe where laws are used to piss off, annoy, steal, and "murder the shit" out of people.
And, to top it all, law enforcement officers are invincible demigods, making EvE the most law-regulated existing game universe (at least outside null-sec space).
Jaldard
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-01-05 17:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaldard
nvm
Jaldard
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-01-05 17:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaldard
nvm, two time in a row, this must be a world record. :/
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-01-05 18:33:40 UTC
No war, no Eve. Conflict is the beating heart of the experience and you are part of the great adventure. You can react and respond to aggression in any way you see fit, it's an on-going opportunity to expand the experience not a restriction of your rights to stack things in little piles. Sandbox means that sometimes other people will want to kick over your sandcastles, perhaps they're also clever and they'll wait to do it until the playground monitor is busy putting a plaster on the fat boy with the bowl haircut. You need your own clever, when the smelly man who hangs around the fence comes back and asks if any one wants to see some puppies, go over to the bad boy and tell him the smelly man is giving out free ice cream. You get the idea.
ShipToaster
#37 - 2012-01-05 18:51:32 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
You bribe CONCORD to look the other way while you murder the shit out of people. CONCORD gives people notice to allow them to keep some semblance of legitimacy.


This is a common misconception. You dont bribe CONCORD at all, but instead pay them the fee required under the Yulai Convention then CONCORD sanction your war.

.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2012-01-05 19:17:20 UTC
Jaldard wrote:
]I have to admit you nailed it rather well by comparing concord and organised crime.

But in that case, I have to disagree with the "lawless" thing, it's certainly not a "lawless" universe, it's a universe where laws are used to piss off, annoy, steal, and "murder the shit" out of people.
And, to top it all, law enforcement officers are invincible demigods, making EvE the most law-regulated existing game universe (at least outside null-sec space).


The only law enforcement officers who are invincible are CONCORD who enforce one rule, and one rule only. Don't violence each other's boats when you're not supposed to. The Faction police are tankable, killable, and indeed farmable for tags. They cover hunting baddies.

So unless you're including Game mechanics in the "Laws" part of the game, the only Law that I can think of is don't shoot people unless X. The X marks the slightly complex part.

And if it's law-regulated, why are Fraud, Awoxing, Theft, Scamming, Spamming, and Market manipulation all perfectly unregulated in Eve's Hisec (in fact, most of them are celebrated).

ShipToaster wrote:

This is a common misconception. You dont bribe CONCORD at all, but instead pay them the fee required under the Yulai Convention then CONCORD sanction your war.


In very few cases in corrupt countries will you hear bribes being called bribes. They will usually be called "Fees", "Processing Charges", "Expedited Service Charges"(with the understanding that it's expedited from never to sometime), etc.

So, Bribe, Fee, whatever. You pay 11% to be wardec-immune, or you can suffer at the hands of people paying the whatever to shoot you. It's a wonderful protection racket, that's perfectly in EVE's style, because CONCORD (and it's NPC corp co-conspirators) makes out like bandits on both ends.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#39 - 2012-01-05 19:25:40 UTC
Quoting myself from the original GM thread:
Mara Villoso wrote:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”? The fundamental issue here is that some people just don’t want to fight. The devs and GMs and mercenaries may wish otherwise and may seek to find ways to force the issue, but those efforts are doomed to failure.

If a dec mechanic locked a corporation into an alliance (or out of one) and locked every single member into that corporation for the duration of the war, it would only lead to people leaving the game. The only result of a push to force people to PvP is that there will be no PvP from those people. It’s just not going to happen. Just like its not happening now, just like it hasn’t been happening for years. This ruling changes nothing in practice. Those people were always avoiding the decs. The only people affected by hisec wardecs are those with an attachment to their corp name, those with a POS that can’t be taken down quickly, and those who don’t know better. That’s it.

CCP should spend a little time gathering information from those players about why they don’t want to fight. Or under what conditions they would.

At the end of the day, this is what we’re really talking about when we’re talking about wardec shields and evasion. Like it or not, you can lead a carebear to war, but you can’t make him fight.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#40 - 2012-01-05 19:27:10 UTC
Xtover wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Xtover wrote:
Wait we wardecced who?


Lonetrek, from what I hear.

Aye, that we have



Then again my sec status has dropped like a rock. (+4 to pushing -2)


I keep waiting for another Jita protest, so I can try to hit -10 in one GCC, but CCP keeps not failing. I am disappoint.


Good luck in Low. We'll be down here puttering around Feyth, tidying up after you. Hopefully you'll all come back for some fights.

*mutter*Such messy people, just look at all these systems all left in disarray*muttermutter*

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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