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Caldari Ships good at pvp?! (Or, where people argue about ECM IMBAL)
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Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-01-08 08:03:11 UTC
Yeah you ought to be able to deal with 1 falcon with a 5 man gang. I don't think people have started taking advantage of the new battlecruisers enough with regards to that. Once we see more of those I think that there will be a lot more falcon killmails. I'd still like to see the mechanic changed, though.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-01-08 08:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Smabs wrote:
ECCM is basically useless outside of battleships. Most people should know that.


Uh, no it's not. It still works pretty well on BCs, logis, recons, T3s, HICs, etc.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-01-08 08:37:27 UTC
On a solo/very small gang level it is, when a falcon can land multiple jammers on you.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-01-08 08:40:25 UTC
Smabs wrote:
On a solo/very small gang level it is, when a falcon can land multiple jammers on you.


I actually ran around in a Scimi w/ 103 sensor strength (double ECCM + lg jackals w/o omega) for small gangs. Just because people would engage :becauseoffalcon: then get really, really mad when I omnomnomed all their jam cycles and kept repping.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#85 - 2012-01-08 08:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Commander Lenix wrote:
Smabs I kinda agree with you on the idea that cynos and falcon alts make things less fun. But Liang's gay ass idea that Falcon's are not balanced is total bull ****. If only caldari players could use Falcons then yes they would be unbalanced but that is not the case. Anyone can use them. And if Liang wants to go out on a 5 man gang and cry and **** his panties if the other guys bring a Falcon then that is his own damn fault. Either use your own, or plan to counter it but don't kick and scream saying "that's not fair."

Since Liang just wants to complain and not think up counters I will give him one of the simplest falcon counters. A mother ******* stealth bomber. You can use it as a scout and as a falcon killer. The manti already has high sensor strength and with an ECCM they are ******* hard to jam. They are small and fast and can lock as soon as they decloak which means the falcon can't cloak back up. Then you can mwd over and point the falcon, target paint the falcon and start killing the falcon, then soon, no more falcon. Simple as that. But Liang doesn't want to have to "plan" anything and be prepared for any outcome. It sounds like he just wants easy mode.


Its ******* hilarious that someone defending ECM is accusing someone else of wanting "easy mode". Lol

-Liang

Ed: Also, I have several anti-falcon ships in my hangar. But really, why should someone have to devote an entire ship in a 5 man gang to countering something that might be there. Especially when that one thing that might be there is in no way gimping the opposing fleet. There is no "You have to fit a whole ship to counter me because I gave up all utility other than ECM!"

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-01-08 08:59:07 UTC
So you're talking about a specific ship with 2 eccm and an implant set just to avoid getting jammed?

How many sub-bs ships can really get away with eccm?

Frigates, dessies, dictors, most cruisers - forget it.

Shield canes - You would be cutting your tank down to ~40k just to get the falcon down to a 40% jam chance on each cycle. It might be doable with an armor tank.

Drakes - Yeah, you could do it, but you would be sacrificing a web or a significant amount of tank. Still, it's kind of viable. Solo you would still get permajammed.

Myrmidon can get there with an implant set and an armor tank. I think Prometheus was flying something like that but he was still getting jammed half of the time, even sometimes by ecm drones.

I still think the best way to deal with falcons is high damage and good range, ecm of your own or a sniper ship to clear it off the field.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-01-08 09:16:29 UTC
Smabs wrote:
So you're talking about a specific ship with 2 eccm and an implant set just to avoid getting jammed?

How many sub-bs ships can really get away with eccm?

Frigates, dessies, dictors, most cruisers - forget it.

Shield canes - You would be cutting your tank down to ~40k just to get the falcon down to a 40% jam chance on each cycle. It might be doable with an armor tank.

Drakes - Yeah, you could do it, but you would be sacrificing a web or a significant amount of tank. Still, it's kind of viable. Solo you would still get permajammed.

Myrmidon can get there with an implant set and an armor tank. I think Prometheus was flying something like that but he was still getting jammed half of the time, even sometimes by ecm drones.

I still think the best way to deal with falcons is high damage and good range, ecm of your own or a sniper ship to clear it off the field.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11883992

ecm is fine.
stop crying...
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-01-08 09:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
Was that an armor cane with multiple eccm? Do you think that fit is practical with the way eve usually works?

Also the 2 blackbirds were fit with t1 multispecs.

ECM is fine when numbers go to 5+. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I even suggested how people might counter it with a very small gang (i.e. eccm probably isn't optimal).
Commander Lenix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-01-08 09:30:25 UTC
Biced sweet kills dude. Proves just how ECM is not perfect and does not need to be messed with.

Liang, you are ridiculous. You are still missing the point. You want to be able to take out a 5 man gang and be able to face anything and everyone in the game. It is not possible. You might go up against a fleet with a falcon, or a nano fleet that you can't catch, or a fleet with 4 logis or whatever the **** the other guys might be flying. The whole point is you never now what the other guys might bring so you will never have the perfect fleet to counter every mother ****** out there. However, it is very common knowledge that a lot of ******* pilots in EVE ♥ ECM and use ECM because ECM is effective. Its not effective all the time, but enough of the time that lots of people use it. So again you are complaining about the fact that your five little ships should be unstoppable but because of Falcon they aren't so Falcon is overpowered, Falcon needs a nerf. You are ridiculous.
With you logic people will complain about interceptors because they speed tank, and have small sig, and its hard for my five man fleet to kill them. Waah, inties need a nerf.

If you can't change your tactics or have a different plan when you and your 5 man gang of ultra-leet PVPers head out to destroy every ship they find but all your hopes and dreams die when you encounter ECM then there is most defiantly a problem. But the problem is you and your lack of broad thinking about the ship types you MIGHT encounter while flying around in EVE.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-01-08 09:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Biced
Smabs wrote:
Was that an armor cane with multiple eccm? Do you think that fit is practical with the way eve usually works?

Also the 2 blackbirds were fit with t1 multispecs.

ECM is fine when numbers go to 5+. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I even suggested how people might counter it with a very small gang (i.e. eccm probably isn't optimal).


dual eccm and overheated guns on the blackbirds.
t1 multis yeah but still 8 of them on me.
is that fit practical? hell yes it is!!! i got 7 kill mail with it do you really need more?

anyway i really dont get your point so its fine when you have a gang of 5 vs a gang of 5 but not fine when there is 5 people shooting you?
btw 3 guys run away from my cane so it was 8v1... and yes they were all newbeis...
eccm works. on any ship class in eve.
point is if you know what you are going up against there are ways to counter it.
if you run in a gang of 2 bc and both have overheated eccm on, one of you should be able to take that jamming ship out.
if you run solo in a bc any recon on field can pretty much ruin you game.
Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
#91 - 2012-01-08 09:56:14 UTC
Autocannon Ferox.

There is no substitute.

Those who cannot keep up will be left behind, to watch from a distance. And those who stand in our way will not watch at all.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-01-08 10:02:40 UTC
Once you get to 4 or 5 people it means that you usually have enough dps to clear falcons off the field, have ecm of your own or are able to apply a good proportion of your dps from the unjammed ships. Less than that and a single falcon can permajam (or close to it).

It's cool that you got a good fight like that but an armor cane with double eccm is an extremely situational ship.

Other recons aren't so bad solo. Rapiers and huginns die really easily. Arazu could possibly be bad but if you start close-by it's not so big a deal. Curses are fairly bad for cap hungry ships but are otherwise kill-able. ECM is the only one that completely shuts down multiple ships. There's a reason you don't see sabres with an arazu alt.

Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-01-08 10:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Biced
Smabs wrote:
Once you get to 4 or 5 people it means that you usually have enough dps to clear falcons off the field, have ecm of your own or are able to apply a good proportion of your dps from the unjammed ships. Less than that and a single falcon can permajam (or close to it).

It's cool that you got a good fight like that but an armor cane with double eccm is an extremely situational ship.

Other recons aren't so bad solo. Rapiers and huginns die really easily. Arazu could possibly be bad but if you start close-by it's not so big a deal. Curses are fairly bad for cap hungry ships but are otherwise kill-able. ECM is the only one that completely shuts down multiple ships. There's a reason you don't see sabres with an arazu alt.



2 bc with over heated eccm = 36 sensor on each. there is no way he will permajam you both.
1 flight of med ecm drones will make him lose lock 2 flights of warriors will force him off the field pretty fast.

also if you start close by a falcon he will die pretty fast.
drop a shield brutix 0 on a falcon and he is in hull before he gets a jam on you and the drones take care of the rest....
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-01-08 10:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
Light drones won't force a falcon off the field. The dps is too low.

You could definitely do 2 battlecruisers with eccm but, like I was saying, you're sacrificing a lot of mobility or tank in order to maybe avoid being permajammed if you come across an ecm ship that's a part of a gang that you can fight. It's still quite likely that one or both the battlecruisers will be jammed for the majority of the fight.

Also falcons usually decloak at range so, unless the falcon pilot is really awful, that scenario will rarely happen.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-01-08 10:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Biced
Smabs wrote:
Light drones won't force a falcon off the field. The dps is too low.

You could definitely do 2 battlecruisers with eccm but, like I was saying, you're sacrificing a lot of mobility or tank in order to maybe avoid being permajammed if you come across an ecm ship that's a part of a gang that you can fight. It's still quite likely that one or both the battlecruisers will be jammed for the majority of the fight.


cane 4 meds web+mwd+point+?
harbi 4 meds web+mwd+point+? (cap booster? maybe small nos and eccm if you ask me)
myrm 5 meds web+mwd+point+?+?

my ham drake has no web on it cause i rather have more tank.
you make choices in this game...

also 10 warriors is like 200dps? drop that on a falcon and he is off the field in something like 90sec.
you can **** around in your nano canes till he is off the field and then go for the kill.
or us ecm drones. 10 lights and the falcon is permajamed....

oh forgot one more thing drake doesnt really need eccm cause you have FOF.
so enough with all the falcon tears please.
they work just fine have low ehp, align very slow when plated (only way to fit a falcon) have very low cap do close to 0 dps.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-01-08 14:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
Okay, whatever you like to think.
Jill Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-01-08 16:54:32 UTC
Commander Lenix wrote:
Exactly. It is balanced because any 5-7 man gang you face might have their own Falcon. This is no different than if you have a cyno. You pop a cyno on a 5-7 man gang and bam 20 of your friends jump in and kill those clowns is that balanced? not really but since those fucks can also use a cyno and have 20 friends on standby just waiting to kill you makes it balanced because anyone can ******* do it.

Why can you not grasp this concept. Any tool in EVE can be used by anyone with the SP and the isk. That makes it FAIR GAME!!!


Fair is not the same as balanced, we could have a ship that killed by just locking and it would be fair but certainly not balanced. So when something is so strong that you either bring it or you lose it's probably not balanced, I'm not saying falcons are cause I'm a newbie and have no clue but your arguments are horrible.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#98 - 2012-01-08 20:00:22 UTC
Jill Thiesant wrote:
Commander Lenix wrote:
Exactly. It is balanced because any 5-7 man gang you face might have their own Falcon. This is no different than if you have a cyno. You pop a cyno on a 5-7 man gang and bam 20 of your friends jump in and kill those clowns is that balanced? not really but since those fucks can also use a cyno and have 20 friends on standby just waiting to kill you makes it balanced because anyone can ******* do it.

Why can you not grasp this concept. Any tool in EVE can be used by anyone with the SP and the isk. That makes it FAIR GAME!!!


Fair is not the same as balanced, we could have a ship that killed by just locking and it would be fair but certainly not balanced. So when something is so strong that you either bring it or you lose it's probably not balanced, I'm not saying falcons are cause I'm a newbie and have no clue but your arguments are horrible.


This all the way. Before the supercap nerf, the response to supercap whines was "why don't you bring your own supercap?" That's not called balance

Single killmails killing jamming ships are not proof of the imbalance. What are needed are statistics about the number of kills Falcons are on vs the number of Falcon losses, and comparing the ratio of those to Arazu/Pilgrim/Rapier.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-01-08 21:04:21 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


Single killmails killing jamming ships are not proof of the imbalance. What are needed are statistics about the number of kills Falcons are on vs the number of Falcon losses, and comparing the ratio of those to Arazu/Pilgrim/Rapier.


Well, there's this:

1 Maelstrom 50947
2 Drake 39009
3 Hurricane 30706
4 Tengu 24274
5 Abaddon 21092
6 Tornado 12123
7 Tempest 11363
8 Scimitar 9356
9 Sabre 7754
10 Armageddon 6616
11 Zealot 5990
12 Huginn 5736
13 Scorpion 5652
14 Cynabal 5559
15 Manticore 5553
16 Rapier 5385
17 Nyx 5268
18 Hound 5237
19 Vagabond 5050
20 Oracle 4792

So, the Huginn and Rapier are more popular than the Falcon and Rook. Now we don't have the losses, so we can't work out the ratios as you wanted,but it sounds reasonable to assume that Falcon/Rook would get primaried over Rapier/Huginn, so it's likely that they take more losses than Huginn/Rapier too, at least per pilot-hour of combat.

So, nerf target painting? Blink
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2012-01-09 03:26:59 UTC
What, exactly, is that long list of numbers you just posted? It looks like some sort of rating or popularity chart but seeing as how you didn't bother to document it I have no way to know. :(

Also, Falcons have much higher personal survivability than a Huginn/Rapier. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.