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Caldari Ships good at pvp?! (Or, where people argue about ECM IMBAL)

Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-01-05 19:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The mechanic itself needs changed, [...] so many effects.

-Liang


By this definition neuts and damps should be nerfed, err, excuse me, "changed," also.


Should I post a fraps of me active tanking a domi, drake, and cane with 5 neuts on me? Should I post a video of getting under an Arazu's damps and tackling him anyway? Should I post a video of me flying properly to mitigate TDs?

Maybe I should post a video of a Curse instantly neuting out an entire enemy fleet the instant it lands on the field. Or maybe I should post a video of an Arazu uncloaking and instantly locking 5 people out of a close range fight...

Basically: No. You are wrong.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Justin Cody
War Firm
#62 - 2012-01-05 20:04:35 UTC
L'Petit Object wrote:
I take a one year break from the game and someone has told me now that Caldari ships are ACTUALLY being used in PVP?!

Have all of you lost your freaking mind? I spec'd Caldari because unlike my commy/liberal-pinko RL attitudes, in internet spaceships I wanted to be a vicious fascist/anarcho-capitalist pig. Then I found out that Caldari ships were complete crap, everyone armor tanked, and none of them could do anything worthwhile in pvp.

There were rare exceptions, you anal-retentive bastards. I know, blah blah blah, Ham Drake. TORPS R GOOD. I saw the video, and, yeah, I can' spend a billion on pirate-faction crap to make it work too. (no I can't, I'm broke, please send ISK)

But besides for soloboating pirate scum, every time you wanted to fleet up you couldn't meet DPS needs because your lowslots were now a massive plate, DC, and some other such crap.

So is it true? Some rumor was that goonswarm was running shield pvp fleets. Another was that Hybrids were actually comparable weapons to other guns. Space stations are filled with fairies and love and CCP is going to give us all a month free to make up for extended downtimes. (figure out which one's I'm serious about)

After a year of playing, DETERMINED to fly the Rokh because it looks like a giant Engine of space-doom, are you actually telling me it could be viable fleet ship?! Because I'm about to plan Gallente and inquiring minds want to know.

/incredulity

PS: Need a solid solo-boat, pirate-scum pvp fit for a caldari cruiser.


Well normally I would help a commie-pinko-dirty hippy such as yourself into a bucket of fail-sauce...but I'm feeling charitable today.

So here we go: solo pirating pvp cruiser for the caldari: The Moa (for t1 cheapness). Fit blasters, ec drones and I'm sure you can figure out the rest. use the range bonus to your advantage with blasters, which means you can put out peak dps without closing to the same range as a thorax must.

for t2 - Rook. Don't worry about the tank...just fit multi-spec's for solo piraty pvp, heavy assaults and go all gank in the lows with a damage control at most. You should be able to go toe to toe with most bc size ships and smaller.

The jamming of the rook also makes a nice GTFO button if things get hairy. No it isn't guaranteed but noting in EVE is for certain.

You can attempt to pvp with a ferox I suppose. Many people have sadly been forced to switch to autocannons, but again you can fit blasters and use its range bonus to extend that good dps and tracking out farther than gallente ships are capable of doing. You are of course still susceptible to neuting, but if your shield tank is hefty enough you should do ok at least against tier 1 BC's and smaller.

regards,

Libertarian whack-a-do... Justin Cody
Osiris Jongleur
Doomheim
#63 - 2012-01-05 20:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Osiris Jongleur
Liang Nuren wrote:
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The mechanic itself needs changed, [...] so many effects.

-Liang


By this definition neuts and damps should be nerfed, err, excuse me, "changed," also.


Should I post a fraps of me active tanking a domi, drake, and cane with 5 neuts on me? Should I post a video of getting under an Arazu's damps and tackling him anyway? Should I post a video of me flying properly to mitigate TDs?

Maybe I should post a video of a Curse instantly neuting out an entire enemy fleet the instant it lands on the field. Or maybe I should post a video of an Arazu uncloaking and instantly locking 5 people out of a close range fight...

Basically: No. You are wrong.

-Liang


Yeah, then show the fraps where you replaced that cap booster with an ECCM.

The issue at hand is, you basically assume neuts are in a given encounter and you plan your fit accordingly. You could do the same with ecm, but you don't.

Basically: You want to make this into a scenario where your pilot skill is the all-determinate factor, which is never the case.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-01-05 20:35:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The mechanic itself needs changed, [...] so many effects.

-Liang


By this definition neuts and damps should be nerfed, err, excuse me, "changed," also.


Should I post a fraps of me active tanking a domi, drake, and cane with 5 neuts on me? Should I post a video of getting under an Arazu's damps and tackling him anyway? Should I post a video of me flying properly to mitigate TDs?

Maybe I should post a video of a Curse instantly neuting out an entire enemy fleet the instant it lands on the field. Or maybe I should post a video of an Arazu uncloaking and instantly locking 5 people out of a close range fight...

Basically: No. You are wrong.

-Liang

post those ^^
No. You are wrong.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-01-05 20:35:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Squatdog wrote:

Ugh.

A Rifter beating a pre-nerf Dram was a freak occurrence that usually hinged on the Dram pilot being a complete ****** or the Rifter pilot being boosted/drugged out the arse.

Falcons are routinely forced off the field or blown up in gang/small fleet engagements and the aforementioned pan-fleet perma-jam scenario is the freak occurrence.


Have you ever flown ECM bro? ECM locking down huge portions of the enemy fleet is common place - and in small gang warfare locking down the entire enemy fleet is really quite common.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee.... Basically: ECM is a problem because of the following:
- Ewar ships are force multipliers in all gangs that they scale to. ECM scales up fairly high as far as ewar goes. This means that you are not gimping your gang by bringing a Falcon along unless the gang you are fighting (not your gang) really big. I know for fact that 2x scorps can make a massive difference in a 70 v 50 - to the point that the 50 will easily win. (I was the scorp pilots).
- All other ewar can be mitigated through piloting.
- All other ewar can focuses the ewar ship on 1-2 enemies, not 5-8 enemies.
- Against many ships (T1/T2 cruiser and smaller as a rule) ECM can maintain a 100% guaranteed permajam
- ECM prevents not just damage but also RR, counter ewar, and tackle.

Furthermore, there's literally **** all you can do about it.

The mechanic itself needs changed, and just because you have more than one bonus to your ewar doesn't mean you should have so many effects.

-Liang


Once again, it sounds like you just need to learn how to play.

Falcons get forced off the field fairly easily by drones/snipers/FoFs and all it takes is one missed jam cycle for the Falcon to get melted.





Have I ever flown ECM? I commonly DUAL-BOX with Falcon AND a counter-Falcon sniper Navy Caracal:

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11885258

Note how the magical invincible Falcon gets shredded by light tackle and two cruiser hulls:

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11885258




Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-01-05 20:41:07 UTC
Here's another example:

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11708066

Not only did the 2 Falcons get popped, EVERY ECM boat on the field got popped!
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-01-05 20:44:06 UTC
Mike712 wrote:
I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now:

[Rokh, Fleet Rokh]
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

Looks quite Caldari.


Don't know about that mate, Down in the Curse region it's Drake central, usually mixed in is the odd rapier and Dram.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**

L'Petit Object
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-01-06 04:13:11 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now:

[Rokh, Fleet Rokh]
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

Looks quite Caldari.


Don't know about that mate, Down in the Curse region it's Drake central, usually mixed in is the odd rapier and Dram.


Tried this with All V skills, and it didn't fit. Would need powermod. Now I'm filled with rage. You can fit this thing with 350mm rails and do just fine with it though.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#69 - 2012-01-06 04:17:36 UTC
L'Petit Object wrote:
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now:

[Rokh, Fleet Rokh]
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

Looks quite Caldari.


Don't know about that mate, Down in the Curse region it's Drake central, usually mixed in is the odd rapier and Dram.


Tried this with All V skills, and it didn't fit. Would need powermod. Now I'm filled with rage. You can fit this thing with 350mm rails and do just fine with it though.

It fits with AWU 4 / Shield Upgrades 4, i fly exactly the same fit atm. Get you EFT right.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 

L'Petit Object
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-01-06 04:25:09 UTC
Wrong EFT version, My bad. Updating to 2.14 now.
OninoTimmo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-01-06 04:36:40 UTC
Hey sup, so you may have heard of our alliance, we specialize in medium to large scale fleet combat. Caldari ships are often used by us. In fact, we have two doctrines based around Caldari ships.

One is high-buffer afterburning shield-tanking HML Tengus and the other is Rail Rokhs, whose fit was posted on the first page and quoted several times on this one. Tengus require rich pilots and an FC who is ballsy enough to field a fleet of them. Many alliances have copied this to mixed degrees of success. Rokhs are more versatile but they are a new fleet concept and afaik we are the only ones who regularly run them.

My corp specifically focuses on small gang pvp, mainly around gate camps and ganks. Falcons (!a Caldari ship!) are pretty much a staple of our gangs otherwise some scrub in a bait ship will wipe out all our small ships in a single swipe. There are numerous easy counters to Falcons yet there are inexplicably 3 pages devoted to bickering about it. Stop being bads.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-01-06 08:40:52 UTC
Shield Cats!
Commander Lenix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-01-07 19:48:31 UTC
It amazes me how many of you twats get your panties in a twist over ECM and then spray your tears and pussy juice all over the forums about it.

Grow the **** up and get over it. If you want to cry all day about how ECM is an unstoppable menace then dock the **** up, biomass your toon and go back to your my little ponies and easy-back ovens.

I spent a lot of time training this toon for Recon V and max ECM skills. And even after all those SP I am at risk of losing a Falcon every time I decloak. Unlike all other EW, ECM is chance based, which means there is always a chance I won’t get any jams or miss a jam, and then my ******* ship explodes. And I’m sorry that some of you wet vaginas are sad in the pants when your 6 man frigate gang is not completely unstoppable like you want it to be, and a T2 cruiser is actually able to jam you out. Waah, Waah you poor things.

Also, realize that against any fleet with more people than the Falcon has jams said Falcons can die almost as soon as they uncloak. Then when you are facing a large gang Falcons are virtually useless because they will become insta prime the second they decloak. So in reality Falcons are only really good with small gangs and mediocre against medium gang fleets anyways. Even in large fleet fights, Scorps are almost always the first primary which means very quickly there won’t be any ECM of the field during a large fleet engagement.

Even with my extensive SP and bad-ass Falcon piloting skills there is still always a chance I will miss a jam, and always a chance I could die. Falcons are paper thin and any skilled fleet knows how to kill them quickly. I’m sorry some of you **** tards don’t. I’m sorry some of you idiots want your 8 man nano gangs to be able to kill anything in its path, but guess what ladies, that ain’t gonna ******* happen.

So fly one or learn how to counter them, I don’t care what you do, just ******* deal with it. Quit your bitching about them, because they are not the God Like, harbingers of Doom you homos are making them out to be. There are dozens of ways to kill them our counter them and that doesn’t include forum whining.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-01-08 06:46:12 UTC
Commander Lenix wrote:
It amazes me how many of you twats get your panties in a twist over ECM and then spray your tears and ***** juice all over the forums about it.

Grow the **** up and get over it. If you want to cry all day about how ECM is an unstoppable menace then dock the **** up, biomass your toon and go back to your my little ponies and easy-back ovens.

I spent a lot of time training this toon for Recon V and max ECM skills. And even after all those SP I am at risk of losing a Falcon every time I decloak. Unlike all other EW, ECM is chance based, which means there is always a chance I won’t get any jams or miss a jam, and then my ******* ship explodes. And I’m sorry that some of you wet vaginas are sad in the pants when your 6 man frigate gang is not completely unstoppable like you want it to be, and a T2 cruiser is actually able to jam you out. Waah, Waah you poor things.

Also, realize that against any fleet with more people than the Falcon has jams said Falcons can die almost as soon as they uncloak. Then when you are facing a large gang Falcons are virtually useless because they will become insta prime the second they decloak. So in reality Falcons are only really good with small gangs and mediocre against medium gang fleets anyways. Even in large fleet fights, Scorps are almost always the first primary which means very quickly there won’t be any ECM of the field during a large fleet engagement.

Even with my extensive SP and bad-ass Falcon piloting skills there is still always a chance I will miss a jam, and always a chance I could die. Falcons are paper thin and any skilled fleet knows how to kill them quickly. I’m sorry some of you **** tards don’t. I’m sorry some of you idiots want your 8 man nano gangs to be able to kill anything in its path, but guess what ladies, that ain’t gonna ******* happen.

So fly one or learn how to counter them, I don’t care what you do, just ******* deal with it. Quit your bitching about them, because they are not the God Like, harbingers of Doom you homos are making them out to be. There are dozens of ways to kill them our counter them and that doesn’t include forum whining.


I've trained everything you have - and more. Just because you've trained it (or I've trained it) doesn't make it balanced. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Commander Lenix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-01-08 07:26:17 UTC
The very fact that you trained the same skills, and I trained those skills and anyone in the game can train those skills is the very thing that makes ECM balanced. Thanks for making my point.

Either use ECM yourself or shut the **** up about it. Anyone and everyone can use it. It is a smart thing to use because it is a force multiplier and smart people in EVE use ECM, they don't ***** about it on the forums. End of story.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-01-08 07:31:31 UTC
These days a falcon can get instapopped by a tornado or killed in a few volleys by a tier 3 sniper so I don't know if they're nearly as powerful anymore. Plus the sabre bubble nerf was a stealth falcon nerf as well.

It's a terrible mechanic and discourages soloing but it's not really as strong in small gangs anymore.

ECCM is basically useless outside of battleships. Most people should know that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-01-08 07:33:28 UTC
Commander Lenix wrote:
The very fact that you trained the same skills, and I trained those skills and anyone in the game can train those skills is the very thing that makes ECM balanced. Thanks for making my point.

Either use ECM yourself or shut the **** up about it. Anyone and everyone can use it. It is a smart thing to use because it is a force multiplier and smart people in EVE use ECM, they don't ***** about it on the forums. End of story.


Suppose I roam in 5 man gangs most of the time, and most of the time I face 5 man gangs. Now suppose that I have a weapon which will almost totally nullify 5-7 people out of any gang I face. BUT ITS BALANCED BECAUSE ANYONE CAN TRAIN IT!!! Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Commander Lenix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-01-08 07:38:11 UTC
Exactly. It is balanced because any 5-7 man gang you face might have their own Falcon. This is no different than if you have a cyno. You pop a cyno on a 5-7 man gang and bam 20 of your friends jump in and kill those clowns is that balanced? not really but since those fucks can also use a cyno and have 20 friends on standby just waiting to kill you makes it balanced because anyone can ******* do it.

Why can you not grasp this concept. Any tool in EVE can be used by anyone with the SP and the isk. That makes it FAIR GAME!!!
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-01-08 07:40:28 UTC
Yeah it's fair game but it doesn't encourage making Eve fun at all.

You kind of end up with Pandemic Legion syndrome if you cyno on to people a lot - after a while they simply stop fighting or move to another region altogether. Same goes for people with falcon alts. So it's fair in a technical sense but discourages pvp over time, which probably isn't what CCP wants.
Commander Lenix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-01-08 07:56:54 UTC
Smabs I kinda agree with you on the idea that cynos and falcon alts make things less fun. But Liang's gay ass idea that Falcon's are not balanced is total bull ****. If only caldari players could use Falcons then yes they would be unbalanced but that is not the case. Anyone can use them. And if Liang wants to go out on a 5 man gang and cry and **** his panties if the other guys bring a Falcon then that is his own damn fault. Either use your own, or plan to counter it but don't kick and scream saying "that's not fair."

Since Liang just wants to complain and not think up counters I will give him one of the simplest falcon counters. A mother ******* stealth bomber. You can use it as a scout and as a falcon killer. The manti already has high sensor strength and with an ECCM they are ******* hard to jam. They are small and fast and can lock as soon as they decloak which means the falcon can't cloak back up. Then you can mwd over and point the falcon, target paint the falcon and start killing the falcon, then soon, no more falcon. Simple as that. But Liang doesn't want to have to "plan" anything and be prepared for any outcome. It sounds like he just wants easy mode.