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Caldari Ships good at pvp?! (Or, where people argue about ECM IMBAL)

Author
V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#41 - 2012-01-05 01:07:34 UTC
It almost sounds reasonable to say that bringing an ECM ship is sacrificing gank/tank from your gang, so it makes sense for them to sacrifice something to counter it.

But...

An ECM ship is effective against almost everything. A counter-ECM ship is ONLY effective against an ECM ship.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#42 - 2012-01-05 01:09:27 UTC
Amana Tsasa wrote:

And, if you flew with an attempt to counter, you would face

1 DPS, 1 Falcon
vs
4 DPS, 1 Falconkiller

who wins?

My philosophy is very similar to the 'Don't Fly what you can't afford to lose' philosophy, 'Fly Prepared' yes, you might still lose, but the Falcon was designed to do SPECIFICALLY that, why would you expect to be able to counter it with the exact same things that you use to do mundane, everyday tasks?


Falcons are useful against everything except supercaps. I've even used them to break up ECCM RR Carrier circle jerks. Falcon killers, OTOH, are useful against exactly one thing. Furthermore the falcon very well might keep the other 4 members of the team jammed long enough for the 1 DPS to kill your "falcon killer" - in which case 4 DPS, 1 Falcon killer still loses to 1 DPS, 1 Falcon.

The ECM mechanic is OP as hell in small gangs, and the ability for one person to lock down an entire small gang is just ludicrous.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-01-05 01:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatdog
It's hilarious how a thread regarding Caldari PVP has degenerated into a tearful ECM sobfest.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too.

Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is:
[...]
This is a lesson in why ECM sucks.

-Liang

As someone who's usually on the giving end of that sort of encounter, I agree wholeheartedly Big smile Falcons scale VERY poorly when you shrink gang sizes (from a balance POV, not saying that they're underpowered) In larger gangs and in fleets ECM is fine as is, but holy bad game design batman do they ever need a kick in the teeth for small gangs.


I think there's a lot of things about CC that Eve could learn from other MMOs. Not diminishing returns and CC breaks and all that, but just the idea that a single guy shouldn't disable the entire other enemy gang. Some kind of scaling would be great. Something that meant a frigate required more effort to permajam than activating a multispec as an example.

I'd say that despite the lack of diminishing returns (and thus the ability to be perma-CCed!), all defensive CC in Eve is roughly balanced save ECM. And ECM is just ridiculous because up to gang size of 10-15 its simply... incredible. And Scorps are actually able to scale even higher because of their higher HP letting them live through semi massed drone aggro (also, range if thats your bag).

-Liang


You were in a gang of light tackle (with extremely low sensor strength) and were SURPRISED when a Falcon jammed you out???

ECM becomes much less effective with heavier fleets. Drakes can force them off the field if they get within 80km and the Falcon's jam strength becomes progressively worse the further they drift outside optimal range (around 55km).

Drones chew them up, snipers chew them up, light tackle chews them up and stops them from warping, especially in larger fleets where tackle won't be ECM primary. All it takes is one missed cycle for the Falcon pilot to end up in a pod.

Scorps only have the base jam strength of a Blackbird and are more of a nuisance than an IWIN Button in BS fleets.
Osiris Jongleur
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-01-05 01:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Osiris Jongleur
Liang Nuren wrote:
And in case you're too ******* stupid to get it: ECM is most unbalanced in the small gang situation. And by "most unbalanced" I mean "horrifically breaks". In a 3v3 there is literally no counter shy of extreme niche fitting a ship.


LOGI is most unbalanced in the fleet situation. And by "most unbalanced," I mean "horrifically breaks." In a 100v100 there is literally no counter shy of extreme alpha.

ECM is terrific against low sensor strength clap-traps in small numbers, but it isn't going to do much in a fleet. Bitching about how something isn't balanced because of your preferred play-style (presumably gate ops in Ama these days) is just laughable.

But do please continue to make the case for ecm nerfs. I quite enjoy reading your narrow worldview bellows for the amusement factor.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-01-05 02:04:37 UTC
Noisrevbus
#46 - 2012-01-05 03:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Attention
Ed. This is what happens when the preview window and actual post window don't match. Cba to fix, fix the forum.

Here's both some positives and negatives in bulleted summary:


    1. Caldari and the other races:
  • All things are still relative: all races have always had good ships and potentially powerful comps to build around them.
  • Relative: Caldari have always remained fairly inflexible, narrow and playing best with it's own kind (main and support).
  • In many ways Caldari and Gallente continue to be similar in that regard, though Caldari still can't comparatively armor tank.
  • The two top notch Caldari ships remain the Drake and Tengu (good, thanks to the resist-damage bonus pairing with HML-reach).
  • That in contrast to bonuses that don't match and ranges that either overshoot or undershoot existing mechanics and trends.
  • Many smaller Caldari ships still have intergration issues due to their inability to affect speed, even when gimped for it.

  • 2. ECM - then and now:
  • Every Caldari thread still seem to delve down into complaints about ECM.
  • Most people in the community have yet not realized that you can counter ECM with ships that do several other things at once.
  • No credible groups ever used Armor Ravens, Scorpions, Falcons or Blackbirds (even Tengus) to any greater extent.
  • They saw use when trying to find something for Caldari-only pilots in large, unorganized groups. Possible? yes, Good? no.
  • As a point of reference: the same groups would use Muninns in AHAC gangs. It was possible but never near good enough.
  • With diminished offensive power there were always better supplements to bring, giving up the ECM-crutch.
  • Recon-ships remain a well balanced class, but chance-mechanics are bad, as was the survival-nerf/strength-buff for Falcons.
  • In effect, those changes only made the problems with ECM more appearant, and diminished positive, inventive, peripherals.
  • Not enough people realized fully what you could do to counter BC-blobs with Combat Recons after the above changes.
  • Though the Lach and Huginn grew (more-) popular as the trends started to take root.

  • 3. Caldari in current large-scale trends:
  • With current trends, servers and mechanics Caldari support have begun seeing more (intergrated-) use in larger fleets.
  • You mainly have the rise of Minmatar BS to thank for that, allowing slower, shield-tanked support ships to find their place.
  • Not only does it sustain the Drake as step-support, but also Scorpions (Vultures and Basilisks) at the larger scales.
  • High alpha with good reach and relatively fair mobility also reinforce the Tengu as the ultimate counter (though not the only).
  • The introduction of Tier 3 BC will only exacerbate those conditions and endorse continued profileration of stapled gangs.
  • That in itself is a big let down, since Crucible contained improvements to other things that the community begun opening up to.

  • 4. Ships, Mechanics, Politics and Server performance - the ties that bind:
  • Since performance is very key to trends at the moment, it'll be interesting to see if time-dilation succeed a change in trend.
  • I remain sceptical of a larger change though as it does not deal with the operation of more intricate mechanics (eg., drones).
  • Another trend in line with that is simplification of intricate mechanics, for ease of use in high-demand environments (eg., bombers).
  • The best way to achieve a more tolerabe racial/class balance is to balance gameplay and content over group- and fleet sizes.
  • There have been many interesting ideas (and trend counters) that simply don't scale up to size- or performance issues.
  • Mechanics endorsing a feudal political life will continue to see all players desert vast space to clash in one region.
  • In turn, such behaviour will continue to push needs for server performance and keep life stale with few sovereign actors.
  • Stagnant life likewise reflect back to stale doctrine, staple concepts, racial balance and the role of a ship or class.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#47 - 2012-01-05 03:28:59 UTC
Squatdog wrote:


So apparently the definition of "broken in PVP" means 100% guaranteed win, always to you. Wow - I guess maybe we should have left the 0 ROF dreads in game. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#48 - 2012-01-05 03:32:40 UTC
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
And in case you're too ******* stupid to get it: ECM is most unbalanced in the small gang situation. And by "most unbalanced" I mean "horrifically breaks". In a 3v3 there is literally no counter shy of extreme niche fitting a ship.


LOGI is most unbalanced in the fleet situation. And by "most unbalanced," I mean "horrifically breaks." In a 100v100 there is literally no counter shy of extreme alpha.

ECM is terrific against low sensor strength clap-traps in small numbers, but it isn't going to do much in a fleet. Bitching about how something isn't balanced because of your preferred play-style (presumably gate ops in Ama these days) is just laughable.

But do please continue to make the case for ecm nerfs. I quite enjoy reading your narrow worldview bellows for the amusement factor.


The funny thing about that is that DPS does scale much better than logistics. Hell, it doesn't take very long before even low alpha ships are 1-2 volleying ****. BTW, no you don't have to instapop something in order to get past logi support... you just have to be able to switch targets.

The question is whether or not you have as much coordination as the logi pilots do on their side. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#49 - 2012-01-05 03:40:17 UTC
Squatdog wrote:

You were in a gang of light tackle (with extremely low sensor strength) and were SURPRISED when a Falcon jammed you out???


No, I wasn't surprised. I saw the Falcon on my overview and knew what was about to happen. Its not the first time that its happened, and it won't be the last. It wasn't a surprise; it was a totally foregone conclusion. My point is that the mechanic behind ECM is utterly broken. Its not ok when your gang calculation looks like this:

For a small gang with X people:
X + Falcon > X + rand(5, 7)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Osiris Jongleur
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-01-05 04:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Osiris Jongleur
Liang Nuren wrote:

The funny thing about that is that DPS does scale much better than logistics. Hell, it doesn't take very long before even low alpha ships are 1-2 volleying ****. BTW, no you don't have to instapop something in order to get past logi support... you just have to be able to switch targets.

The question is whether or not you have as much coordination as the logi pilots do on their side. ;-)

-Liang


And the funnier thing is that it also scales much better than ecm. When is the last time you saw a few dozen falcons in a fleet rather than logi? [And do note, i'm not accusing logi of being in need of "balance," or nerfs of any kind.]

I get the feeling you're trying to draw that line in the sand that designates what is "coordination," vs. what is unfairnerfplz. As I said before, it's amusing as hell to read, but the fact a falcon can ruin the day of a very small gang says nothing about their overall balance.
Spineker
#51 - 2012-01-05 04:32:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
One year ago they were still good, who the hell were you flying with who made you armor-fit Caldari ships?!



The reality of the situation, however, is that shield tanking has actually been quite powerful for a number of years. The extra mobility that came with shield tanking was just too valuable. The trend for "nano" shield tanking everthing sub-BC started maybe late 2008 - maybe even earlier? Even then early adopters were commonly scoffed at.

-Liang



Nano made its peak during the start of FW release. Ishtars and even Cerbs were nano haha. They got nerfed not long after also but yeah all true.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#52 - 2012-01-05 04:52:46 UTC
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The funny thing about that is that DPS does scale much better than logistics. Hell, it doesn't take very long before even low alpha ships are 1-2 volleying ****. BTW, no you don't have to instapop something in order to get past logi support... you just have to be able to switch targets.

The question is whether or not you have as much coordination as the logi pilots do on their side. ;-)

-Liang


And the funnier thing is that it also scales much better than ecm. When is the last time you saw a few dozen falcons in a fleet rather than logi? [And do note, i'm not accusing logi of being in need of "balance," or nerfs of any kind.]

I get the feeling you're trying to draw that line in the sand that designates what is "coordination," vs. what is unfairnerfplz. As I said before, it's amusing as hell to read, but the fact a falcon can ruin the day of a very small gang says nothing about their overall balance.


See, I'm not trying to talk about how ECM scales into blob - because it doesn't. I'm talking about how ECM scales in small gang combat - where small is defined as 2-8 man gangs. Basically, look at it like this - ECM is the only ewar that you can't mitigate after you undock.

Furthermore, all arguments about "I sacrificed fleet efficiency and so should you" are total bullshit - because as long as you're engaging fleets where ECM scales (and you can almost guarantee this) then you are not sacrificing fleet efficiency for diversity. Its not even that ECM is a force multiplier - its merely a "Add 5-7 more ships so that anyone in your fleet can lock anything".

And yes, I'm aware that you can do crazy **** like 150 sensor strength Celestis and that a BS isn't "permajammed" and all that ****. I've done my time in ECM ships and I have perfect skills for them on more than one character. Hell - I trained Caldari BS 5 twice for the Scorp.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#53 - 2012-01-05 09:02:51 UTC
ECM-the real problem is how it feels to be on the receiving end of a 20 second stun, if it was scaled to 5-10 sec It would get complained about 75% less

PvP-caldari have always been about the public opinion of missiles, old nano gangs laffed at them, now they can't so low and behold there fine now if you have the Patience to wait for your damage.

Remember caldari are the enemy of gallente, caldari being the most ridged with there ship hulls and the gallente the loosest, because of this no one "wants" gallente and people only want some of caldari at any given time.

Gallente-start fearing them now. If your in this game for the long haul the drone rework will happen in the next 4 years and one it dose........

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-01-05 09:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Amana Tsasa wrote:

My philosophy is very similar to the 'Don't Fly what you can't afford to lose' philosophy, 'Fly Prepared' yes, you might still lose, but the Falcon was designed to do SPECIFICALLY that, why would you expect to be able to counter it with the exact same things that you use to do mundane, everyday tasks?

Yep ecm is there to counter such a gang.If it couldnt do it well what point would it be to use it ?
Lets analize these lowsec whiners:
You say ecm is awesome in small fleet warfare especially low sec--->
--> most fleets should field ecm ships making it fairly common to encounter--->
--> there is a huge change that you encounter ecm ships with your fleet knowing that it can disable most of your fleet-->
you must be stupid not to field any type of counter vs ecm ships ---->
being stupid , why should we listen to you ??

you means low sec ecm whiner :)
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#55 - 2012-01-05 10:16:53 UTC
So having been jammed up and a helpless passenger in a fight by a falcon once or twice - yes ECM is a b*gger.

However - if it was always instawin then *everyone* one would be flying it and we would encounter it constantly and therefore would fly with anit-ecm ships.

As it is - it's just something to try and avoid for now. If it becomes totally pervasive fleets will adapt if not then all we will see is moaning on the forums from people who don't like thinking and adapting.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-01-05 10:18:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Squatdog wrote:


So apparently the definition of "broken in PVP" means 100% guaranteed win, always to you. Wow - I guess maybe we should have left the 0 ROF dreads in game. Roll

-Liang


WTF are you talking about???

The 'invincible' Cynabal/Falcon combo got completely slaughtered by 4 light tackle and a Rapier, for the loss of only one Hawk.

Do you want me to post some more small gang Falcon kills? I have a solo kill with a Drake using FoFs.

Quote:
No, I wasn't surprised. I saw the Falcon on my overview and knew what was about to happen. Its not the first time that its happened, and it won't be the last. It wasn't a surprise; it was a totally foregone conclusion. My point is that the mechanic behind ECM is utterly broken. Its not ok when your gang calculation looks like this:

For a small gang with X people:
X + Falcon > X + rand(5, 7)

-Liang


Here's a thought:

Don't fly frig hulls in small gangs and expect to avoid being jammed by a dedicated T2 ECM cruiser.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#57 - 2012-01-05 10:28:19 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Squatdog wrote:


So apparently the definition of "broken in PVP" means 100% guaranteed win, always to you. Wow - I guess maybe we should have left the 0 ROF dreads in game. Roll

-Liang


WTF are you talking about???



That OP does not mean "impossible to beat" or "always wins", but rather just something that is disproportionately powerful or disproportionately hard to counter when compared with other equivalent ways to play. So far as EWAR goes, ECM is very overpowered. There are player actions that can be taken in combat to mitigate the effects a TD or a SD has on you, but none to mitigate ECM. In addition, one ECM ship can disable far more ships far more effectively than a TD or SD ship. That is called "OP".

To further clarify, Liang was complaining about using a single engagement of frigates+Rapier killing Cynabal+Falcon to supposedly disprove Falcon being overpowered.

To draw another parallel, before the Dramiel nerf, Dramiels were killed by Rifters sometimes. That did not make the Dramiels any less overpowered.

Get it?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-01-05 10:55:35 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Squatdog wrote:


So apparently the definition of "broken in PVP" means 100% guaranteed win, always to you. Wow - I guess maybe we should have left the 0 ROF dreads in game. Roll

-Liang


WTF are you talking about???



That OP does not mean "impossible to beat" or "always wins", but rather just something that is disproportionately powerful or disproportionately hard to counter when compared with other equivalent ways to play. So far as EWAR goes, ECM is very overpowered. There are player actions that can be taken in combat to mitigate the effects a TD or a SD has on you, but none to mitigate ECM. In addition, one ECM ship can disable far more ships far more effectively than a TD or SD ship. That is called "OP".

To further clarify, Liang was complaining about using a single engagement of frigates+Rapier killing Cynabal+Falcon to supposedly disprove Falcon being overpowered.

To draw another parallel, before the Dramiel nerf, Dramiels were killed by Rifters sometimes. That did not make the Dramiels any less overpowered.

Get it?


Ugh.

A Rifter beating a pre-nerf Dram was a freak occurrence that usually hinged on the Dram pilot being a complete ****** or the Rifter pilot being boosted/drugged out the arse.

Falcons are routinely forced off the field or blown up in gang/small fleet engagements and the aforementioned pan-fleet perma-jam scenario is the freak occurrence.


Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2012-01-05 18:26:11 UTC
Squatdog wrote:

Ugh.

A Rifter beating a pre-nerf Dram was a freak occurrence that usually hinged on the Dram pilot being a complete ****** or the Rifter pilot being boosted/drugged out the arse.

Falcons are routinely forced off the field or blown up in gang/small fleet engagements and the aforementioned pan-fleet perma-jam scenario is the freak occurrence.


Have you ever flown ECM bro? ECM locking down huge portions of the enemy fleet is common place - and in small gang warfare locking down the entire enemy fleet is really quite common. I deleted 4-5 fraps videos last night where you could have listened to my 3-8 man gangs sit around and say:
" Wheee, this is fun!"
"You still jammed?"
"Yeah I'm still jammed"
"Does anyone have an alt that could come in and kill this falcon?"
"No or it'd already be in the fight"
"OH LOOK STILL JAMMED"
...

Me: "Falcon on the field overheat on that Tornado"
FC: "Tornado is in structure. Come on guys overheat!"
Me: "Jammed"
FC: "Jammed"
Person 3: "Jammed"
Person 4: "Jammed"
Person 5: "Jammed"
Person 3: "Abaddon is warping out"
Person 3: "Tornado is out"
Person 4: "Hurricane is out"
Me: "Dammit."
Person 3: "Falcon is out"

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee.... Basically: ECM is a problem because of the following:
- Ewar ships are force multipliers in all gangs that they scale to. ECM scales up fairly high as far as ewar goes. This means that you are not gimping your gang by bringing a Falcon along unless the gang you are fighting (not your gang) really big. I know for fact that 2x scorps can make a massive difference in a 70 v 50 - to the point that the 50 will easily win. (I was the scorp pilots).
- All other ewar can be mitigated through piloting.
- All other ewar can focuses the ewar ship on 1-2 enemies, not 5-8 enemies.
- Against many ships (T1/T2 cruiser and smaller as a rule) ECM can maintain a 100% guaranteed permajam
- ECM prevents not just damage but also RR, counter ewar, and tackle.

Furthermore, there's literally **** all you can do about it.

The mechanic itself needs changed, and just because you have more than one bonus to your ewar doesn't mean you should have so many effects.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Osiris Jongleur
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-05 19:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Osiris Jongleur
Liang Nuren wrote:

The mechanic itself needs changed, [...] so many effects.

-Liang


By this definition neuts and damps should be nerfed, err, excuse me, "changed," also.