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Caldari Ships good at pvp?! (Or, where people argue about ECM IMBAL)
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FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#21 - 2012-01-04 21:57:36 UTC
So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2012-01-04 22:04:49 UTC
No I wouldn't say that ECCM and FOFs are a sufficient counter to ECM - primarily because fitting to counter ECM utterly ******* destroys your fit with regards to anything else. Hell, in that particular example we were actually running with a full set of info links (!!).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#23 - 2012-01-04 22:07:33 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets.


Nope, ECCM really gimps any fit, and is only warranted where you are really damn sure you are going to get jammed -- such as when flying a logi.

FOF missiles can work, but they are horrible by virtue of the fact they can randomly decide to shoot drones or other such things. They are very unreliable.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2012-01-04 22:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets.


Nope, ECCM really gimps any fit, and is only warranted where you are really damn sure you are going to get jammed -- such as when flying a logi.

FOF missiles can work, but they are horrible by virtue of the fact they can randomly decide to shoot drones or other such things. They are very unreliable.


It's more than just that it disables your damage - its that it disables everything (including tackle and counter-ewar!) and there's literally nothing you can do about it. The closest thing to this level of incapacitation is damps where its 1 ewar ship disabling 1 DPS ship and even then you can simply get closer or wait for the lock. With TDs it doesn't affect your tackle and you can still pilot effectively to limp along.

With ECM? Everyone in your fleet just waits around for it to be their turn to die.

Yes, all 5-8 of you.

Because of 1 guy on the other side.

The end.

Good fight!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#25 - 2012-01-04 22:27:11 UTC
Actually I've been considering using disposable Celestis cruisers to deal with camping snipers. Damp their targeting range and laugh.

But yeah, ECM is far overpowered compared to other EW in small gangs.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-01-04 22:29:01 UTC
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#27 - 2012-01-04 22:33:23 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.


So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? Roll

The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#28 - 2012-01-04 22:33:39 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.


In their case it was the fault of the mixed race composition, plus most of them being frigates -- it allows the Falcon to nail them with racial jammers perfectly.

The problem wasn't that they were not able to drive it out or neutralize it, but rather that ECM can be an easy-mode escape button. Your enemies have the length of the whole jam cycle to decide to either punch holes in you, run away, or both. And there's nothing you can do about it.

With TDs there is: lower your transversal, or get closer. With SDs there is: get closer, or wait a little longer.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#29 - 2012-01-04 22:34:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.


So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? Roll

The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED.

-Liang


Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2012-01-04 22:40:16 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.


So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? Roll

The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED.

-Liang


Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons.


Go with an mass ECCMed info linked Blarazu. People using a Falcon like putting it at range from the rest of the fight and you'll generally have time to kill him before they get on top of you. Its a bit niche but you really do have to have such ridiculous counters on hand at all times just in case someone has a Falcon nearby.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-01-04 23:19:52 UTC
Sorry for the delay in replying, I was just fighting outnumbered against a gang that included a Falcon. It didn't last long on grid.

Yes, if your imagination is limited to Celestes, then I suppose you could bring a Celestis. I wouldn't though. Putting all that ECCM on isn't really necessary though - you shold be able to apply RSD before the Falcon gets round to applying a jammer to you. For your frigate gang with info link support, a Keres would take a SeBoed Falcon down to 26 km lock range.

I agree that the random-number ECM is a terrible mechanic. But it's better than the previous binary no-effect/permajam stacking of ECM mods. The game needs a way of turning off RR other than neuting, and I'm yet to see an idea for making ECM a better mechanic without nerfing it into lol-uselessness. Something along the lines of turning off highslot mods might work, but then you get the odd case of Falcons being unable to jam eachother.
L'Petit Object
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-01-04 23:43:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.


So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? Roll

The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED.

-Liang


Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons.


Go with an mass ECCMed info linked Blarazu. People using a Falcon like putting it at range from the rest of the fight and you'll generally have time to kill him before they get on top of you. Its a bit niche but you really do have to have such ridiculous counters on hand at all times just in case someone has a Falcon nearby.

-Liang


So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.
Goose99
#33 - 2012-01-04 23:47:26 UTC
Fail Winmatards unwilling to gimp their fit with ECCMs, for the potential ECM boats they may encounter, because they want to keep winning in the 99% of the times when those ECM boats don't show.Big smile
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-01-04 23:48:34 UTC
bruhuhuhu ecm bruhuhu nerf nerf
Osiris Jongleur
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-01-05 00:03:56 UTC
L'Petit Object wrote:
So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.


Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-01-05 00:08:46 UTC
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
L'Petit Object wrote:
So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.


Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.

i put ecm even onto my transport ships it is that awesome
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#37 - 2012-01-05 00:10:46 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Sorry for the delay in replying, I was just fighting outnumbered against a gang that included a Falcon. It didn't last long on grid.

Yes, if your imagination is limited to Celestes, then I suppose you could bring a Celestis. I wouldn't though. Putting all that ECCM on isn't really necessary though - you shold be able to apply RSD before the Falcon gets round to applying a jammer to you. For your frigate gang with info link support, a Keres would take a SeBoed Falcon down to 26 km lock range.

I agree that the random-number ECM is a terrible mechanic. But it's better than the previous binary no-effect/permajam stacking of ECM mods. The game needs a way of turning off RR other than neuting, and I'm yet to see an idea for making ECM a better mechanic without nerfing it into lol-uselessness. Something along the lines of turning off highslot mods might work, but then you get the odd case of Falcons being unable to jam eachother.


A few comments:
- Neuting is a fine mechanic for turning off RR. If you feel it isn't powerful enough, feel free to make AOE neuting more viable.
- Remember the key difference between Damps, TDs, and ECM is how thoroughly and without recourse it fucks with your ability to deal damage, counter ewar, and tackle. Furthermore, it does this not to one person at a time but to entire gangs at a time.
- A RSD on the Falcon does **** all for your gang mates that are trying to kill it.
- In fact, all of your ideas centered around driving the Falcon off the field - not killing it. Remember, the key difference between damps, TDs, and ECM is how thoroughly it fucks with your counter-ewar and tackle.
- Yes, the mechanic of ECM is what I'm railing against, not its overall effectiveness. Though I am somewhat irritated by how Bigger isn't always Better in Eve ----- unless you're talking about how ****** you are if a Falcon happens by.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Amana Tsasa
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-01-05 00:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Amana Tsasa
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
L'Petit Object wrote:
So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.


Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.


The most surprising part is, everyone complains that to counter a ECM fit caldari ECM ship, you have to gimp another ship to fullfill the ECCM role, but thats exactly what the other fleet did, they lost one ship from DPS/Tank, to fullfill the ECM role, I don't understand why they think they should be able to counter it without losing one of their DPS/Tanks.

My guess is they have the bruiser mentality 'Well, this is BS, because I can't just outpower this thing doing the same thing that I've been doing forever, so it must be OP''(Edit to realize after re-reading my post a couple times, realized I said the exact same thing)

I say, get over it, either fly prepared, or quit crying when you lose to someone who did fly prepared.

ECM for life
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#39 - 2012-01-05 01:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Amana Tsasa wrote:
Osiris Jongleur wrote:
L'Petit Object wrote:
So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.


Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.


The most surprising part is, everyone complains that to counter a ECM fit caldari ECM ship, you have to gimp another ship to fullfill the ECCM role, but thats exactly what the other fleet did, they lost one ship from DPS/Tank, to fullfill the ECM role, I don't understand why they think they should be able to counter it without losing one of their DPS/Tanks.

My guess is they have the bruiser mentality 'Well, this is BS, because I can't just outpower this thing doing the same thing that I've been doing forever, so it must be OP''

I say, get over it, either fly prepared, or quit crying when you lose to someone who did fly prepared.

ECM for life


That's a reasonable argument until you consider:
1 DPS, 1 Falcon
vs
5 DPS

Who wins?

1 DPS, 1 Falcon

Doesn't seem very "gimped" now does it?

-Liang

Ed: And in case you're too ******* stupid to get it: ECM is most unbalanced in the small gang situation. And by "most unbalanced" I mean "horrifically breaks". In a 3v3 there is literally no counter shy of extreme niche fitting a ship.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Amana Tsasa
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-05 01:04:30 UTC
[quote Liang Nuren]

That's a reasonable argument until you consider:
1 DPS, 1 Falcon
vs
5 DPS

Who wins?

1 DPS, 1 Falcon

Doesn't seem very "gimped" now does it?

-Liang
[/quote]

And, if you flew with an attempt to counter, you would face

1 DPS, 1 Falcon
vs
4 DPS, 1 Falconkiller

who wins?

My philosophy is very similar to the 'Don't Fly what you can't afford to lose' philosophy, 'Fly Prepared' yes, you might still lose, but the Falcon was designed to do SPECIFICALLY that, why would you expect to be able to counter it with the exact same things that you use to do mundane, everyday tasks?