Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Today, the realistic engagement range of any fleet has to be within 150km. We all know this - if you attempt to do anything at any greater range than that, then any number of tactics (though most obviously, combat probes) will be used to get a close warpin on said sniper fleet and then your **** gets wrecked.

This is the problem that faces Caldari railboats, most notably the Eagle, but also the Rokh and Ferox. The primary benefit of railguns is their spectacular range (just as artillery has alpha and beams have DPS). However, since effective combat range is capped at 150, Caldari railboats are inherently ****.

There are two ways, then, that you can balance them. You can buff railguns at closer ranges, which then makes them a clone of beamlasers (boring), or you can raise the engagement range to 250km so that their niche is actually useful.



...And of course, the only way to do that, is to set the min warp distance to 250km. And frankly, I can't really see any long term problems with this. There is some short-term inconvenience (people have to remake tacticals and insta-undock bookmarks), but this is the only way I can see that can balance railguns in the long term. The other option is to give rails a complete redesign and coming up with a brand new niche for them.

I cannot see any other issues with this.

And how do you propose fixing that without completely overhauling the scanning system? I tried to think of a non-exploitable fix. I couldn't.

this is not an argument.




And this is a dumb and irrelevant analogy.

An Eagle or a Rokh that is enjoying its range is comfortable at ~200km.

If a Zealot is faced with this situation, it can obtain a quick scan, and then just "warp to 100", which drops it at just the right range. Short range ships can do the same with "warp to 0".

Changing the minimum warp distance to 250km would prevent both of those cases from happening.

Therefore, minimum warp distance does have a bearing on getting a warp-in, and the speed at which it can be accomplished -- you have to warp away and then to the bookmark, rather than directly there.

Stop using big words to try to sound smart.

While this is true it doesn't explain the popularity of AHAC gangs. They are several (10ish) Zealots and maybe Muninns sitting at 100 km range, plus a Guardian or two, and they snipe.

Despite the lack of point, that generates a huge amount of DPS so some ships pop anyway. Kahega's proposed change would give the Eagle an engagement niche in much the same way, just at a higher range (and at slightly lower DPS).

Sniping as a mechanic is fine as is. Kahega's change would just allow railguns to be used alongside beam lasers and artillery as sniping weaponry.

You don't need a point to PvP. *gasp* Particularly if you play the alpha/range game, or if you are an EW ship that really should be fitting something more useful instead of a point (my Arbitrator or Blackbird never fit points).

That said, I approve of more HIC fun.

It used to be you could make a ship unprobable. So this is what that fix also broke.

I agree with you that the time it takes to apply damage to an enemy may (though not always) depend upon minimum warp distance. Unfortunately this missed the point of the argument. Perhaps my not including the words "point" or "bookmark", in relation to gaining a warp-in, confused you. I added a clarification to my original post. See the bracketed words.

Just in case you do not understand, I will make it simple:

The objection you raise is that it takes time to warp to a ping/bounce spot and then back to the enemy (at whatever range one desires) as opposed to warping directly. As such, the time it takes to get a warp-in is effected by minimum warp distance.

Your objection, however, presupposes the existence of that very warp-in [point,bookmark]. What I was refering to was the speed at which that warp-in [point,bookmark] can be generated. This happens prior to any consideration of the time it takes to warp to said point or bookmark (directly or via a ping/bounce). The longer it takes a Zealot to gain a warp-in [point,bookmark] the longer it takes for him to be able to warp in range of the target, even under the current min. warp standard of 150km. Making the min warp distance 250km does not change the amount of time it takes to create the warp-in [point,bookmark] in the first place.

Additionally, as you mention yourself, it is the result of the "obtaining a quick scan" that allows the Zealot to have anything to warp to in the first place. The zealot's distance to the target has no bearing on the creation of a warp-in [point, bookmark]. If the minimum warp distance was 10km, the zealot could be 130km away or 700km away and still be unable to warp.

So the argument that minimum warp distance has no role in getting a warp-in [point, bookmark] still stands.

The fact is, the time it takes to create a warp-in [point, bookmark] plays a larger role in the viability of sniping (generally construed) than the ability to warp to a target at 150km vs. 250km. As the time necessary for creation increases, the viability of sniping increases.