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PIE and the 24th Imperial Crusade Threaten The Disciples of Ston

Author
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#161 - 2012-01-06 15:41:00 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:


Would you object to these being confirmed somehow? Perhaps an interview to confirm they are aware of the option and prefer not to apply to it?


Not at all, we have struggled with trying to make sure that the slavers we rescue aren't just saying what they think we want them to say. We have told them that we are willing to hand them over to the Amarrian authorities. Our only stipulation is that the death penalty, torture, and generational slavery are off the table. We have not received any reply from any governmental authorities nor from Concord, who we have asked numerous times to assist us in the final placement of these individuals. Find a neutral party that the Disciples trust and that the detainees trust, and we will get to it.


As to your only stipulation.
1. I believe I can see mercy extended on illegal enslavement so that those found guilty will not receive a death penalty.
2. I can also see to it that their children will not be enslaved based on this particular breach of Amarrian law.
3. On torture, provided full compliance during the interview. I believe there will be little call for any sterner questioning.

However for the suggestion that I would find a neutral party you can trust? Your previous selection of 'neutral observers' for PIE investigation leads to some scepticism we share the definition.

However f Disciples of Ston are either able to find:
A) Amarr or Caldari corporation of good reputation to take on the part of the neutral as paid service to both parties.
Or
B) Accept my personal word on the matter.

I believe we might be able to get on with assuring that Disciples of Ston are not holding Amarrian Freemen prisoner based on their legal profession, but rather breaches of law in practice of that profession.

Manwe Todako wrote:
[
Right now, we are floating an idea both to our detainee population and to our Council of Elders about establishing a voluntary rehabilitation work program, whereby slavers could work in the M-Centers for their release. This would be strictly voluntary. Details have yet to be worked out.


The idea of indefinate imprisonment, unless volunteer work is accepted by the prisoner does not fall short of practices you yourselves have publicly decried. It sends a conflicting message with your public presence so far. I myself find the concept questionable especially if you cannot show that Amarrian Freemen are not held imprisoned solely based on a legal profession or race.

Captain Crow
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#162 - 2012-01-06 16:01:26 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:


The idea of indefinate imprisonment, unless volunteer work is accepted by the prisoner does not fall short of practices you yourselves have publicly decried. It sends a conflicting message with your public presence so far. I myself find the concept questionable especially if you cannot show that Amarrian Freemen are not held imprisoned solely based on a legal profession or race.

Captain Crow


Dear Captain Crow,

Please let me clarify. We do not intend to hold these individuals indefinitely even if they do not wish to participate in a rehabilitation program. I am sorry I did not make that clear. We fully expect that we will be able to work out an arrangement such as the one we are talking about and that eventually all slavers we currently hold will be released to other custody or released.

I am very interested in your proposal. I do not know you well so I cannot make a judgement on the veracity of your word. However, perhaps if individuals from a number of different viewpoints and organizations could attest to your word, we could proceed. Let us keep this conversation going.

SANKOFA

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#163 - 2012-01-06 16:50:00 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
A Response to the speculation.

The Disciples of Ston are dedicated pacifists.

While we have been attacked many times, podded many times, damaged many times, we have never fired back. It is not our way. Everyone can expect this: The Disciples of Ston will continue to rescue people who are in danger. We will continue to offer sanctuary to former slaves. We will continue to do our very best to maintain and operate our Matriculation Centers.

If watching a DSTON rescue vessel explode in space is entertaining to you, then I hope you will enjoy the show.

We also have a strict policy not to fleet up with anyone who will fire a weapon. Our defenses consist of shields, cloaking, and escape.


Would you object to non lethal assistance in future, such as E-War and Logistics?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Peri Citlali
Gone Fishing LLC
#164 - 2012-01-07 02:43:22 UTC
Verone wrote:

When are you guys gonna stop blabbering and declare war on each other so that there's some entertainment comes out of this?

Honestly, there are people who want put money on this stuff. Get over the chest beating and start killing eachother so the rest of us can watch and laugh.



Keep your ears open and mouth shut, you may learn something
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#165 - 2012-01-07 07:14:46 UTC
Yes, I'm sure Ethan Verone has much to learn from you.
Darc Kaahar
Space Men
#166 - 2012-01-07 09:33:12 UTC
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Yes, I'm sure Ethan Verone has much to learn from you.


Take your tongue out of his ********, love.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#167 - 2012-01-08 14:26:48 UTC
I have a report to make which bears on the lack of credibility that the 24th Imperial Crusade has in making any claims that they are concerned for the well-being of slaves or former slaves.

Yesterday, while on patrol, my crew rescued a group of 18 freed slaves. Freed slaves are former slaves who have had their bio-transponders modified so that when you scan them, they register as freed slaves. They have been legally emancipated by their holder and are no longer slaves. These 18 people purchased passeg out of Amarrian space to jita. The Pilot, Katerina Marian is a member of the 24th Imperial Crusade. In order to make room in her cargo hold for "expensive items" who jettisoned her passengers into space and left them to die.

The freed slaves testified, "We were told to gather our things together and then the crew pushed us all into a cargo hold. Next we knew, we were floating in freezing cold space in a jet can. We all thought we would die." One of the ship's crew was heard to remark, "So much for you freedom! Hehe..."

We followed up this testimony by contacting the pilot and requesting her story. Below is a transcript of her response with our original request beneath. We are shocked at the cavalier attitude that this pilot of the 24th Imperial Crusade had toward these freed slaves. Just read what she says about why she decided to abandon them to death.

Re: freed slaves
From: Katerina Marian
Sent: 2012.01.08 12:06
To: Manwe Todako,

Hi/
When I was 1-7 days nooby and collecting all I find. All crap. Esterday I was in horry to get my most staff in jita. so I just drop slaves out, cose my Bestower was full of rare and expensive things. You can keep them! ^)


freed slaves
От: Manwe Todako
Отправлено: 2012.01.07 23:34
Кому: Katerina Marian,

Dear Ms. Marian,
My name is Manwe Todako from the Disciples of Ston. Today I rescued 18 freed slaves from a jet can listed as belonging to you. I would be grateful to know why they were jettisoned at the border crossing since they are not illegal in any jurisdiction. We would to know the story if you please of their diestination, etc.

With gratitude,
Manwe

SANKOFA

Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#168 - 2012-01-08 15:03:17 UTC
I am washing my hands on this matter. Gods mercy on the poor souls Diciples of Ston are holding.

Captain Crow.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#169 - 2012-01-08 19:44:54 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
I am washing my hands on this matter. Gods mercy on the poor souls Diciples of Ston are holding.

Captain Crow.


Just because you say you wash your hands, doesn't make them clean, Captain Crow.

SANKOFA

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#170 - 2012-01-09 01:10:42 UTC
Let me quote what one wise leader once said about the price to be paid for the injustice of slavery.

"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

SANKOFA

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#171 - 2012-01-09 18:26:07 UTC
I am urging everyone interested in these issues to read this news article.

SANKOFA

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#172 - 2012-01-09 19:13:17 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
I am urging everyone interested in these issues to read this news article.



It's always interesting to see a Caldari traitor demonstrate his willful ignorance of not only the Empire but also his own homeland.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2012-01-10 19:09:07 UTC
The Disciples of Ston have a standing news article on IGS where they post the names of the pilots who have jetisoned their human cargos, subsequently recovered by the DoS. I wish to point out that just because the pilot jetisoned them, does not mean that the pilot was the legal owner of the slaves.

Recently I took possession of 3 slaves form the DoS to give them much needed medical attention (the DoS centres are apparently rife with disease), one of them told me that the pilot who ejected her into space was NOT her legal owner, but rather an employee of that individual....and therefore had no right to decide the fate of that slave. If 1 of 3 slaves are telling this story, how many of the thousands held in the matriculation centres are also being held without their legal owners having made the decisions???

Disreputable employees and transport pilots who eject people into space aside, this speaks to the legality of the DoS deciding the fate of people who are the legal property of Amarrian citizens AND who have not freed them. What other legal loopholes and shades of truth do you hide behind Ston? How many of your occupants choose to become freedom fighters/terrorists? What sort of 'education' are they given about the terrorist struggle to doom their people to a Godless quagmire?

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#174 - 2012-01-10 19:46:37 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
The Disciples of Ston have a standing news article on IGS where they post the names of the pilots who have jetisoned their human cargos, subsequently recovered by the DoS. I wish to point out that just because the pilot jetisoned them, does not mean that the pilot was the legal owner of the slaves.

Recently I took possession of 3 slaves form the DoS to give them much needed medical attention (the DoS centres are apparently rife with disease), one of them told me that the pilot who ejected her into space was NOT her legal owner, but rather an employee of that individual....and therefore had no right to decide the fate of that slave. If 1 of 3 slaves are telling this story, how many of the thousands held in the matriculation centres are also being held without their legal owners having made the decisions???

Disreputable employees and transport pilots who eject people into space aside, this speaks to the legality of the DoS deciding the fate of people who are the legal property of Amarrian citizens AND who have not freed them. What other legal loopholes and shades of truth do you hide behind Ston? How many of your occupants choose to become freedom fighters/terrorists? What sort of 'education' are they given about the terrorist struggle to doom their people to a Godless quagmire?


When we communicated your "offer" to all the residents of our Matriculation Centers, Edaine told me and I quote, "You know Ran'shad is going to spin this don't you." I said yes, but that isn't the point is it? Our commitment is to the self-determination of those we rescue irregardless of who spins what in whatever direction. Our reputation and what you or anyone says about us is irrelevant. Our work will continue. We are only surprised the spin took so long. If you read back into our posts, you will discover that we already acknowledged what Ran'shad said, that many of the the former slaves we rescue were siphoned off by shady managers.

As we have explained before, no matter how much you call another person your property, legal or not, we consider no man to be the property of another, ever. As to what the three told Mr. Ran'shad, it is unlikely if we will every know fact from fiction on that account. No matter, our work continues.

This is a good opportunity to ask why no one from the 24IC has addressed the issue of what their pilot, Katerina Marian did to 18 freed slaves. I'll put her own words down again in case you have forgotten.

Re: freed slaves
From: Katerina Marian
Sent: 2012.01.08 12:06
To: Manwe Todako,

Hi/
When I was 1-7 days nooby and collecting all I find. All crap. Esterday I was in horry to get my most staff in jita. so I just drop slaves out, cose my Bestower was full of rare and expensive things. You can keep them! ^)

freed slaves
От: Manwe Todako
Отправлено: 2012.01.07 23:34
Кому: Katerina Marian,

Dear Ms. Marian,
My name is Manwe Todako from the Disciples of Ston. Today I rescued 18 freed slaves from a jet can listed as belonging to you. I would be grateful to know why they were jettisoned at the border crossing since they are not illegal in any jurisdiction. We would to know the story if you please of their diestination, etc.

With gratitude,
Man
we

SANKOFA

Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#175 - 2012-01-11 14:25:26 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
I have a report to make which bears on the lack of credibility that the 24th Imperial Crusade has in making any claims that they are concerned for the well-being of slaves or former slaves.

...Katerina Marian...

This is a sad story indeed. And should I ever encounter Ms Marian, I would certainly take the opportunity to discuss this event further. The thing is, this one pilot, does not represent the entire 24IC. And I'm sure you will never see her communicate in here as she is quite clearly, of a different persuasion than the rest of us.

But does this really prove anything. A freed slave is no longer a slave. Therefore a free person. This free person has paid someone for transport, who then failed to complete the trip for them safely. If these people were still slaves, still in the possession of someone who saw them as valued (If it is money, or spiritual or anything else), then I would suggest they would not have been jettisoned, and instead would be safe somewhere else.
You saving these people is a kind thing, and a good thing. But these 18 people are not slaves, they would have been better off had they stayed slaves.

I hope this serves as a reminder to all those who are thinking about freeing slaves. To those who think that they are doing them a kindness. Not only would you be depriving them of the spiritual guidance they sorely need. But you could be putting their safety and very lives at risk. Who better to protect them than truly faithful Amarr?

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#176 - 2012-01-11 14:38:44 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
This is a good opportunity to ask why no one from the 24IC has addressed the issue of what their pilot, Katerina Marian did to 18 freed slaves. I'll put her own words down again in case you have forgotten.
You should remember that the Theological Council considers abusing slaves, albeit a "waste", within the Godgiven rights of a Holder which should not be interfered with.

Not to mention that the militias hire everyone, their cousin and their dog. Another reason why I'd be careful when trying to speak "for the militia" - there are a lot of people in any militia that an upstanding citizen does not want to speak for.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#177 - 2012-01-11 19:31:57 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
You should remember that the Theological Council considers abusing slaves, albeit a "waste", within the Godgiven rights of a Holder which should not be interfered with.


So, the Theology Council disagrees with that imperial edict prohibiting mistreatment done to slaves ? Or is abusing slaves not considered a mistreatment ?
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#178 - 2012-01-11 19:55:54 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
So, the Theology Council disagrees with that imperial edict prohibiting mistreatment done to slaves ? Or is abusing slaves not considered a mistreatment ?
Do you have a reference to that imperial edict?
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2012-01-12 14:03:34 UTC
Manwe Todako wrote:
As we have explained before, no matter how much you call another person your property, legal or not, we consider no man to be the property of another, ever.


It is not I, nor any other Amarrian who calls them our property....it is God who has charged us with being the sheppards for the countless members of the herds known as the Minmatar tribes. We simply are the messenger and vessel through which He acts.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#180 - 2012-01-12 14:17:55 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
Manwe Todako wrote:
As we have explained before, no matter how much you call another person your property, legal or not, we consider no man to be the property of another, ever.


It is not I, nor any other Amarrian who calls them our property....it is God who has charged us with being the sheppards for the countless members of the herds known as the Minmatar tribes. We simply are the messenger and vessel through which He acts.


Incredible spiritual arrogance and presumption to speak for a being far beyond your limited conception. And, many Amarrians do indeed speak of others as their property. One only has to read this forum to discover that. You are not "shepherds" acting for God. You are criminals stealing human liberty for your own gain.

SANKOFA