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Geopolitical Consequences of Moon Patch
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Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#41 - 2017-06-27 18:39:26 UTC
mkint wrote:


Ninja moon mining will not be a thing, not on any scale that matters. Just like ninja mining isn't a thing that matters on any scale, and lowsec mining isn't a thing that matters on any scale. Why would you expect it to be any different from any other ninja mining? To do it in any way that matters, you'll need to anchor your own structures to store stuff in, set up your own logistics lines, etc. You'll still have to do everything that would otherwise be required to moon mine, especially including the structure bashing to secure the system.


In low sec it will ABSOLUTELY be a thing. It's pretty simple to see why... NPC stations. I move around with my two accounts until I find an unattended chunk of moon material in space (because the owners didn't have the manpower to mine all of it). I then mine and transport the moon materials while the other corp is sleeping in their timezone. If they show up... I warp to station (or just do it in ventures so the loss if they pop me is minimal).

In null... it will be tougher to find un-mined moon chunks I imagine because they'll be organized enough to mine them up when they get created.

Quote:



Except it doesn't help industrial corporations. (I'm not particularly PVP focused, I'm more education focused, which covers a little bit of literally everything.) Structure bashes will still be the central aspect of moon mining. The only people this helps are the groups big enough that they not only have the capability to do both, but the desire. Do you really want to do an alarm clock op to go mining? The only way that would be worth it is if the economy surrounding it was completely broken, therefore, it will become broken, and it will only be the handful of biggest guys who can afford to take part.


They'll still be the central aspect in null. But the small corps who'll struggle to get all the materials out of space will be vulnerable to ninja mining in low-sec. The mining fleets will be vulnerable to attacks from pvp pilots. It generates additional points of player conflict in ADDITION to the structure bashing piece that exists already.

Quote:

The only way this "fixes" anything is if moons can deplete, and structure anchoring times are adjusted to allow for moon mining to be a nomadic activity. Otherwise not only is it just as broken as the old system, it's more so. The people who want to take part won't be able to, the people who don't want to take part will be forced to. How does that not register as broken?


I don't see how or why structure based content should be nomadic. I see this as an opportunity for conflict. I can tell you that if there's some sort of visual that shows a moon is getting ready to pop a chunk of rock, you'll see cloaked cyno alts from various enemy alliances in the null systems... and if they bring out a rorq fleet to mine the moons they'll get the crap dropped out of them all the time. Disrupting the flow off moon mats could easily become a big part of the null sec conflict dynamic... with the chance for escalation into large scale conflict possible. The scheduled nature of it means the attacker will know when targets might arrive and the mining side will know of the possibility of attack and be able to prepare defense. It's like citadel timers (which slow down conquest but do add more scheduled fights).

It turns a passive activity into an active one... which forces one to play the game as opposed to log in for a few minutes and log off. It creates scheduled times for conflict. It allows newer players and alphas to ninja moon mats like they currently do with gas. That feels more like a fix than a break. I'm sorry the fix costs you some passive income. I'm sorry the rorq nerf cost them income. I'm sorry the carrier partial fix and any upcoming additional nerf will cost them income. It doesn't change the fact that all of these were probably good changes.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2017-06-27 19:08:06 UTC
Scialt wrote:


The more difficult you make something in the game, the more of a gap you create between the large groups with lots of people who can throw manpower at the problem and those with low numbers.


Yeah but GRRR GOONS! and all that ...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2017-06-27 19:09:52 UTC
Scialt wrote:


In low sec it will ABSOLUTELY be a thing. It's pretty simple to see why... NPC stations. I move around with my two accounts until I find an unattended chunk of moon material in space (because the owners didn't have the manpower to mine all of it). I then mine and transport the moon materials while the other corp is sleeping in their timezone. If they show up... I warp to station (or just do it in ventures so the loss if they pop me is minimal).

In null... it will be tougher to find un-mined moon chunks I imagine because they'll be organized enough to mine them up when they get created.



Who the hell do you expect to install a refinery + drill in low sec?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2017-06-27 19:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
mkint wrote:


It's not about age, it's about options. Moon mining used to be an option for small groups. Now it won't be. And when moon mining *was* an option for small groups, it opened up even more options. A small PVP corp could have a couple guys running their moon ops. They could potentially do something defend it it as well. Moon mining *was* a PVP activity. Now not only can the smaller PVP corps not moon mine, they also have reduced options for PVP because of the loss of that income. So options? If they will have to give up their story and pick something mediocre and bland, or quit.


If I had a nickel for every time somebody made a statement like this.

So, moon mining is something a small group can do now? Yes? Why can't they do it in the future?

Or let me put it differently, if holding a moon is something "a couple of guys can do" why are they not being displaced by large groups now? How hard is it for a larger group to go blow up that POS and replace it? Not very. So why isn't it happening and why will it happen after the patch?

The implicit assumption here is that "only the big alliances can do it". Ironically you have also argued these big guys are going to have problems too...sooo...they are going to take over even more moons? Do I have that right?

I think this kind of "just so" reasoning is not very useful at all. It has a poor track record.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2017-06-27 19:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Quote:
The Mining Ledger

With all this new activity around the moons of New Eden, the corporations claiming the moons will need new tools for tracking what’s going on in their territory. The mining ledger is the new open-ended tool for Refinery owners to keep track of who is mining in their belt.

Each Refinery structure with an active moon drill will keep track of all the mining done in its associated belt, logging the character, corporation, ore type and amount mined. This will allow Refinery managers to share profits or request fees as they see fit, allow mining operations to more easily organize themselves, and allow corps and alliances to see who has been ninja-mining their fields without permission.
--source


Yeah, no way to find a way to generate alliance level revenues from that. Nope, none at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#46 - 2017-06-27 20:17:36 UTC
Coralas wrote:
mkint wrote:


The only way this "fixes" anything is if moons can deplete, and structure anchoring times are adjusted to allow for moon mining to be a nomadic activity. Otherwise not only is it just as broken as the old system, it's more so. The people who want to take part won't be able to, the people who don't want to take part will be forced to. How does that not register as broken?


There is no reason moon mining should be nomadic. It would inevitably push all the "good" moon signatures to stupid inconvenient systems that are hard to freight from and miles away from ratters or fw pilots or corp members who would form the standing defense fleets, and away from casual moon miners.

Hint : there are money moons in every constellation, and there is going to be a _lot_ of extra mining to do, everyone that wants to moon mine can, and the prices of ore for people who don't will probably go up anyway.



Moon depletion is the only way to mix things up. Resources in the real world don't remain static. They don't generate passive income. Coal seams are dug out, oil fields run dry. If you want more you have to work harder, dig deeper, or dig somewhere else. And then we get conflict. If that's what CCP want then that's what they'll have to do.

The game has been broken in this respect for a very long time. No point arguing this with Goons and other relative newbie alliances - it was broken before they even existed so they have no frame of reference.

When the game launched the only way to make massive amounts of isk was through trading or ore mining. Then along came T2 blueprints (no work involved), mission running (minimal work required) and farming fixed nullsec anomalies which respawned once a day after downtime (minimal work required so long as you lived in Russia). The latter is the best comparison - it was eventually fixed - anomalies now move physically and appear at different times, making it impossible to farm and easier for different groups to challenge.

However, despite the flaws in those mechanisms, moon mining was infinitely worse. This proposal doesn't really change anything.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2017-06-27 20:24:46 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


So, moon mining is something a small group can do now? Yes? Why can't they do it in the future?


Because it's not passive and they can't lower themselves to actually do anything in the game beside ship PvP. It's not like they would "lower" themselves to mining...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2017-06-27 20:49:42 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


So, moon mining is something a small group can do now? Yes? Why can't they do it in the future?


Because it's not passive and they can't lower themselves to actually do anything in the game beside ship PvP. It's not like they would "lower" themselves to mining...


Well...that's on them then.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2017-06-27 20:58:48 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
Coralas wrote:
mkint wrote:


The only way this "fixes" anything is if moons can deplete, and structure anchoring times are adjusted to allow for moon mining to be a nomadic activity. Otherwise not only is it just as broken as the old system, it's more so. The people who want to take part won't be able to, the people who don't want to take part will be forced to. How does that not register as broken?


There is no reason moon mining should be nomadic. It would inevitably push all the "good" moon signatures to stupid inconvenient systems that are hard to freight from and miles away from ratters or fw pilots or corp members who would form the standing defense fleets, and away from casual moon miners.

Hint : there are money moons in every constellation, and there is going to be a _lot_ of extra mining to do, everyone that wants to moon mine can, and the prices of ore for people who don't will probably go up anyway.



Moon depletion is the only way to mix things up. Resources in the real world don't remain static. They don't generate passive income. Coal seams are dug out, oil fields run dry. If you want more you have to work harder, dig deeper, or dig somewhere else. And then we get conflict. If that's what CCP want then that's what they'll have to do.

The game has been broken in this respect for a very long time. No point arguing this with Goons and other relative newbie alliances - it was broken before they even existed so they have no frame of reference.

When the game launched the only way to make massive amounts of isk was through trading or ore mining. Then along came T2 blueprints (no work involved), mission running (minimal work required) and farming fixed nullsec anomalies which respawned once a day after downtime (minimal work required so long as you lived in Russia). The latter is the best comparison - it was eventually fixed - anomalies now move physically and appear at different times, making it impossible to farm and easier for different groups to challenge.

However, despite the flaws in those mechanisms, moon mining was infinitely worse. This proposal doesn't really change anything.



FFS, this is a video game. IRL we can look for alternatives to current inputs. We have moved away from copper wires for phones in many cases. Now that copper can be used for something else. What can we use to replace tritanium? Nanotransistors, is there a substitute for that? Moving these things around is also not like RL either. Do oil fields move around? No.

In the end this is a video game...we don't have to make it a complete life simulator...we already have one of those.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Axure Abbacus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2017-06-27 23:14:24 UTC
Those who really want to moon mine will, even in low sec accepting the Risk and rewards. Absent of drastic changes, the dispersal of materials is fairly thought out. Additionally, there may be the potential for alchemy chains to be momentarily profitable from time to time. 42 is still a good answer to any issue.

Randomly changing what flavor of moon goo you get doesn't make sense. A mined out belt one day still has the same minerals tomorrow. If x number of moons are suppose to have y minerals in a given region, adding randomness and depletion wouldn't really change anything for large alliances. Even if you opened up the randomness pool to cluster wide you only open up moon mining to "limitless issues" and a decade long bug thread. Also, the type of random number generator for moons would be another time sink for programmers who could be spending time on far more broken issues then moon mineral shuffling.

Full depletion of a moon is a good thought if they ever want to add rogue moons and planets to the cluster but not today.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#51 - 2017-06-28 12:54:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Scialt wrote:


In low sec it will ABSOLUTELY be a thing. It's pretty simple to see why... NPC stations. I move around with my two accounts until I find an unattended chunk of moon material in space (because the owners didn't have the manpower to mine all of it). I then mine and transport the moon materials while the other corp is sleeping in their timezone. If they show up... I warp to station (or just do it in ventures so the loss if they pop me is minimal).

In null... it will be tougher to find un-mined moon chunks I imagine because they'll be organized enough to mine them up when they get created.



Who the hell do you expect to install a refinery + drill in low sec?


I don't know... the people who are already creating Raitaru's in low sec now? If the price is more like an Azbel, then maybe it won't happen.
Padrick Millar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2017-06-29 14:39:17 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Scialt wrote:


In low sec it will ABSOLUTELY be a thing. It's pretty simple to see why... NPC stations. I move around with my two accounts until I find an unattended chunk of moon material in space (because the owners didn't have the manpower to mine all of it). I then mine and transport the moon materials while the other corp is sleeping in their timezone. If they show up... I warp to station (or just do it in ventures so the loss if they pop me is minimal).

In null... it will be tougher to find un-mined moon chunks I imagine because they'll be organized enough to mine them up when they get created.



Who the hell do you expect to install a refinery + drill in low sec?


I don't know... the people who are already creating Raitaru's in low sec now? If the price is more like an Azbel, then maybe it won't happen.



This is back and forth is a great example, to me, of how people view Eve differently. The OP above questions why anyone would throw a refinery in low (something I believe will happen all over Eve) and the response above points out that Raitaru's are already in low (which as a new player I assume was at some point unthinkable?).

I've enjoyed every post and appreciate so much thought put into all of this.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2017-06-29 15:45:14 UTC
Padrick Millar wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Scialt wrote:


In low sec it will ABSOLUTELY be a thing. It's pretty simple to see why... NPC stations. I move around with my two accounts until I find an unattended chunk of moon material in space (because the owners didn't have the manpower to mine all of it). I then mine and transport the moon materials while the other corp is sleeping in their timezone. If they show up... I warp to station (or just do it in ventures so the loss if they pop me is minimal).

In null... it will be tougher to find un-mined moon chunks I imagine because they'll be organized enough to mine them up when they get created.



Who the hell do you expect to install a refinery + drill in low sec?


I don't know... the people who are already creating Raitaru's in low sec now? If the price is more like an Azbel, then maybe it won't happen.



This is back and forth is a great example, to me, of how people view Eve differently. The OP above questions why anyone would throw a refinery in low (something I believe will happen all over Eve) and the response above points out that Raitaru's are already in low (which as a new player I assume was at some point unthinkable?).

I've enjoyed every post and appreciate so much thought put into all of this.



Setting up a refinery so other people can pay you for reprocessing and to do your own reprocessing makes sense. Putting the drill on it and not mining the goo does not. The current moon holders won't be able to and probably don't want to mine the resulting rocks from the moon mining system after the change. Anyone who does will also have to deal with pirates attacking them all the time because according to CCP, it will be possible to have at least a rough idea of when the goo will be up for mining.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#54 - 2017-06-29 17:02:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Setting up a refinery so other people can pay you for reprocessing and to do your own reprocessing makes sense. Putting the drill on it and not mining the goo does not. The current moon holders won't be able to and probably don't want to mine the resulting rocks from the moon mining system after the change. Anyone who does will also have to deal with pirates attacking them all the time because according to CCP, it will be possible to have at least a rough idea of when the goo will be up for mining.



What "makes sense" will likely depend on what the yield is and how the market moves.

If large null entities (who will have the easiest time with the change) can fill the needs of all of eve without the price going up too much... then moon mining may disappear from low sec.

But there will be a price point where all the dangers involved are still not enough to deter people from low-sec moon mining due to the large amount of profit available. I feel like that's likely the way things will go.

If prices rise to the point that you can make the equivalent income you make now from moon mining even if you only actually manage to mine 1/4th of the moon chunks available from each drill use... people are going to do it.
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