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Can We Please Agree on the Exact Problem with the Eve Ecosystem?
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
#21 - 2017-06-10 17:16:39 UTC
It's simpler than that. A sandbox game built around PVE is not only boring, but tedious. I can be tediously bored for free in almost any other game.

What do players want? They want Homeworld style battles where they can directly pilot their own ion cannon frigate.. and more importantly, have plenty of reason to go and do that.

PVE just gets in the way. PVE is excellent as a bootstrapping mechanism and part of the NPE, but it's an inhibitory mechanic when it makes up even a significant portion of the end game, much less dominates the economics it.

There are ways that the new moon mining system could be tweaked to make that an everyday reality, but it won't happen because CCP hasn't had a coherent vision of their product in over a decade.
Cade Windstalker
#22 - 2017-06-10 18:03:30 UTC
Lol, only for very narrow definitions of "we" and "agree"...
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#23 - 2017-06-10 18:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Axure Abbacus wrote:
I make no apologizes for asking if this issue should be categorized as a player base issue or a development base issue. It should be the first question to go to when addressing broad issues. Some issues are found and "explored" by dedicated pilots and I respect the Time that goes into finding those issues. "Big alliances are hard to fight" is up there on the list with "Mining is boring" and "Eve is Hard".

-Allowing Individual Corporations to hold Sov would be a good start.
- Bringing CODE to Delve would be another.
-Fighter balance pass is already extracting tears so the Devs are doing their part to address some of the issue.

The Monthly build report shows 5T built and about 1T destroyed and wallets are fat. It has been this way for some time. The amount of materials sitting in Jita station should have cracked the station in half years ago like an overstuffed sausage. Nothing short of a hard cap on M^3 capacity will change Jita or any other NPC station.

This is wholly player driven. Segments of the player base do not pay attention to the market environment and adjust for a healthy economy. Industry changes created incentives to move production away from Jita or eat more costs. I once flew in Lonetrek and I know how it was in 2010. I quickly moved to Syndicate and Placid to have fun.



Let me break your illusion. There is no "player driven" untouchable holy taboo mechanic in this game. That is just some myth people invest/spread to use in arguments about game balance in their favor. The fact is things can be player driven only as much as DRIVING them is allowed by game mechanics, hence CCP.

E.g. nobody that was not input broadcasting was able to multibox 50+ 300m/hr anom running capitals until Rorqual changes. Now they do. And now some exploit this fact to the fullest. And break the game economy. This is not some emergent gameplay that arose by players' creativity. CCP gave this capability to players with Rorqual changes. CCP can take this away. Same goes with the ability to defend your entire sov with 100 titans on standby in your staging system. It is not a somehow holy mechanic that nobody can touch. It was given at some point, although this point dates very back. Yet, if balance requires so, the mechanic can be touched.

You realize by your reasoning anything can be argued to be player driven. The usage of pirate battleships are player driven, so why CCP is intervening with their cost? The usage of interceptors in sov warfare was an emergent player driven thing, so why did they interfere with entosis ceptors? We cannot balance anything if your reasoning holds, because it trivially holds for most mechanics, as the balance of most mechanics is directly related to how players use these mechanics.

PS: Your "bringing CODE to Delve" comment makes me think you don't even know enough about the game to discuss these stuff to begin with.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#24 - 2017-06-10 19:58:59 UTC
There is no "one" reason economy is fuked.

Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#25 - 2017-06-10 21:16:33 UTC
You know, having Nullsec rats get lost in wormholes, meeting up with other null rats (non players, all NPC's) and getting smarter and then 'escaping' into highsec as a blob of hyper-intelligent AI death machines could deflate the money enough. Or you know, you could make asteroid belts have debris fly through them randomly without warning, or you could have smarter Nullsec rats, or you could give rats new toys, or you could simply allow people to attack stations like you would a citadel, except the stations would have no DPS cap in highsec and there wouldn't be asset safety, unless you were there to ninja your stuff out. Or heaven forbid you could, I dunno, let people run from CONCORD but have CONCORD eventually catch up, so that people could lead CONCORD through W-Space into Null, aggravate the group there while Concord is running to catch up, and then if you timed it, CONCORD would jump in when the resident farmers did, the farmers would shoot you as CONCORD came in, CONCORD would see it, and then CONCORD would beat up the poor farmers too.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#26 - 2017-06-10 21:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
That is just another illusion. Smart drifters and emergent PvE. We see its implementations in the game. The Blood Raider shipyards and the drifters in wormholes. NPCs are still stupid. They will remain to be stupid. CCP doesn't have the resources to implement meaningful, fun to play PvE in Eve. Even ship controls are not that interesting to provide that. Take WoW for instance. Even Blizzard, with all those resources, finds it hard to keep up with the demand of fresh, interesting PvE. Even when the game controls, abilities etc. are much more interesting than what Eve offers: A few modules and a ship with some stats to move in space. Because you know what? By its own very nature PvE eventually becomes uninteresting and boring if you do the same activity again and again. That's the nature of scripted stuff.

Eve PvE will never be an interesting game to play. It is merely a tool to provide people ships and means to PvP with. At least for the majority, which plays this game long enough to have tried most forms of PvE and get bored of them. Those smart drifters are a further illusion that a few people like to entertain themselves. What makes Eve very, very special is its unmatchable PvP content. Stories. How social it is.

Meanwhile, the utmost importance of PvE mechanics is that it determines how the economy goes and it provides content for everyone. It creates the bottom layer, the vegetation of Eve ecosystem. NPCs, bounties and ISKmaking activities are the vegetation that sustains life. People who do PvE are herbivores feeding off that vegetation. People who kill them are the carnivores that feed off the PvErs. There are also people who kill the carnivores that kill the herbivores, and even people who kill those. Ideally, we want Eve ecosystem to be like Galapagos. Full of variety, interesting stuff, stories to tell. An experience to remember.

Do you know what I think of those WH Rattlesnakes who die to 'smart' drifters? Its a huge, wasted elephant that is left to rot. Creates nothing interesting. Provides no content. Every single ship that dies to PvE is a ship that could have provided fun and content for the rest of Eve.

I am not saying this because I am a hunter. I too do PvE and get hunted. And if I ever die to drifters, or anomalies, or DED sites, or FW missions, I become doubly upset. I could have died in a PvP fight and provided content and fun to others. It is a ******* waste to die to PvE.

So, why don't we just catalyze PvP content to fix the economy? Instead of introducing more waste that is not fun for anybody including the pilot that dies? Or instead of clinging the illusion of fun PvE, which will never happen because the game is not that big, CCP does not earn that much money, and they do not have that many employees.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Axure Abbacus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-06-10 22:04:15 UTC
Blade Darth wrote:
There is no "one" reason economy is fuked.
You all caught me, "I" am the reason the eve is fubared.

Do not mistake my indifference for ignorance. I've been to Delve, blaped structure, and got run out by PL. No tears here, it was all good fun. My sheet and KB are in my bio. I've played with most aspects of eve. This is my main. It is a Gallente pilot. My gear use to suck, then it didn't, now its meh. We have different "commitment" levels to eve. So tell me WHY should any of this really matter past the fun to be had?

The only Illusion is that EVE is fair. Fairness and balance does not drive conflict. We have different illusions about eve. I assume you are an intelligent, committed pilot in eve. Embrace my Illusions for a minute.

-CCP should spend more time generating content than micromanaging specific tech or markets.
-I hold nothing sacred in eve. When my fits no longer work after a few months idle I have no tears over it.
-If you feel Roquals are a legitimate exploit then this is not the forum for that.
-Everything is Player driven. Mechanics suck. That is the point of an MMO other than get paid not to work. It must really suck to be a game GM>
-Unbalance drives innovation. Unbalance drives conflict. Drive innovation not stagnation. See:how does ITAR apply to you.
-Some fights are one sided. GF and move on.
-Big Alliances Concord you in the Blue systems, where would they get that idea? If null bears are so bad. go gank them.
-CCP intervenes when THEIR plex values are threatened. The tears of some pilots do not matter. CCP inks payroll with them.



It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.
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