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Skill Queue Issues - 2017/06/09

First post First post First post
sith bg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2017-06-09 18:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: sith bg
There were/are a lot of things about the skill training process that could be considered buggy/exploitative. Could you please tell us what the script was intended to do, and what the effects will be on examples of different kinds of accounts.

So let's look at a few examples:

1) PoorBro lost his job but has +4 implants on an alpha, do they still work? I think that's working as intended but it's still bullshit.

2) Dingbat has been training carriers 5 on his lapsed alpha for the last 180 days, but it started before his omega ended, what about him? Does he lose all 180 days, how about 150, etc?

3) SuperDingbat did the same thing but his carriers 5 started the day after his omega lapsed, now what?

4) CautiousYetStillSlightlyDouchey upgraded to omega and queued 29days of omegas and 60d of alpha skills, what happens to him. Let's say the first alpha skill was a 9-day skill and the rest were 5-day skills.... does he lose all the last 60d, or does he lose 52/60 days, or does he lose nothing? This most accurately describes what I've tried to do in the past but ... I fail hard at clicking so this whole sp thing turned out similar to PI for me (which is to say, I set everything up then let it rot).

5) SmartypantsMcDouchesEvenHarder got scared when reddit got pissed and so 3 days ago he rescued all his accounts. Maybe we should call him KingPin instead. Anyways, what happens to that guy?

quick edit: THANK YOU! This was game breaking bullsh*t bad gameplay. Thank you. But I still need to know the details. And thank you. :)
Free Mining Alliance
The Free Mining Alliance
#62 - 2017-06-09 19:34:00 UTC
Perfect timing! I'm in the hospital and can't verify my char. I know they are supposed to be fixing it, but this is just a poop situation.
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2017-06-09 19:49:36 UTC
Raging Beaver wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Raging Beaver wrote:
Will there be any consequences to the people that profited off ghost training?
That could be anyone who let their Omega lapse and didn't log in to immediately stop the queue. That's potentially a whole lot of people.

More trouble than it's worth, in my opinion. A big can of worms considering how badly they implemented this simple fix. As it is this will cost them a huge chunk of training time reimbursement.

Just be glad they finally addressed the issue and hopefully fixed it the first time so we don't have this issue again.

Mr Epeen Cool

I disagree, the ones that inadvertently benefited can probably be separated from the group that actively used this bug for profit quite easily. Some people may even be unaware that such a thing happened (not everybody reads forums/news/reddit and tracks their skill queue). Those that exploited this should however be punished. I'm not going to be delving into the details of what the punishment should be but it was clearly exploitation of an unintended game mechanic and letting it go shouldn't even be an option.

I was considering being conciliatory, but I have better things to do with my time, so I'm just going to go with this: You're wrong, below is why.

1: At no point has this been listed as an exploit, and although it's a bug and has been confirmed as such (though only recently), that isn't the same thing as a confirmed exploit.

2: It breaks no rules. At all. There haven't been any rules on this posted and so no rules have been broken. Your personal opinion on the magnitude of the "crime" is irrelevant. It isn't one as no rules have been broken.

3: How exactly would you separate it? Would you do it on people who unsubbed and then sold skills at any later date? What would your cut off be? Explain to us your foolproof method of finding every single person who benefited from what you consider "cheating" that guarantees not catching a single innocent person? I'll give you a hint. You cannot. You can give a statistical metric for what might be considered "suspicious" but ultimately it's not foolproof.

4: Unintended game mechanics happen fairly frequently in this game (and indeed all games) so should they be punished every single time someone benefits from them, whether they know they have or not?
Rexxar Santaro
Forex Corp
#64 - 2017-06-09 20:25:54 UTC
FlySilver wrote:
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
Lquid Drisseg wrote:

I am a software developer. This is not a hard problem to solve. They already have it solved. Skill training is already a thing. It would not be hard to add in a base level of training that occurs regardless of your queued skills and attribute levels.

Please don't claim this is a hard problem, especially when the vast majority of the actual hard work has already been implemented.

I’m pointing that the server multithreading programing is very complicated and anything missed can turn into huge problems. It’s far away not like to client desktop or mobile apps, but nm.

The problem is most of those threads aren’t obviously predictable, based on some linear function, which you can apply additive to all data. It’s mostly random, which should take into consideration what everyone did the last 10 hours, including subscription gain/lost, plexes, skill injection, skill extraction, attribute changes. Maybe somebody get podded and was for 1 hour at station without any attribute implants active you know. It requires to analyze a lot of log records and recreate the story based on them.

I offered to grant to everyone a micro SkillInjector, as average SP for all accounts. Almost all will be happy and CCP will not waste time on this.

I'm pointing that you obviously have no idea about multithreading programing. If you think it is very complicated you most likely have no experience in programming at all. I would even go as far as to say that all of the threads are predictable. The Reason it is that way, is "obviously", you code that Threads yourself. If you have to rely on other Threads you dont have written yourself you do not in any way expect those Threads to behave at all and work with them in a completely different way that has nothing to do with "multithreaded programing" in its basic meaning.

Heh, this thread isn’t about examining somebody’s multithreading programing knowledge. Somebody is a good shader programmer, other one is a good multithreading programming and other one is good in developing huge DB-systems. Shortly, let’s put apart simple client multithreading programs (when you just open a file or compressing it in a thread and then it is closed), client dynamic threads and server multithreading systems (where every running thread works into an infinite loop and should interact with many different systems: web-server, client exe, mobile app, DB-Server and etc; the problem of secured thread programing and memory leaks is well known). Compared to OOP, Delegate programing or Interfacing concepts the threading one is more complicated because of this Debugging process at least. In big projects it’s OMG when something’s going wrong, because a well working thread can suddenly work wrong just because the imported or exported data form/to DB, Web, EXE can have an unexpected value/format/structure which will create exceptions or bad logical decision that are hard to detect. The number of bug fixes and patches, in every serious project available on market, are just an example that this isn’t simple.

P.S. Sorry about this wall of text...
Slesor Fistvile
Caldari State
#65 - 2017-06-09 22:15:27 UTC
WAAAAAH! I lost some sk... Oh, I'm getting it back?
Cherry Bomb
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2017-06-09 23:14:29 UTC
Thank you CCP for the rapid response time and thank you
ISD Max Trix for helping me find this thread. Pirate
Vailen Sere
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2017-06-10 00:02:32 UTC
The current skill I am training is soo long , it looked kind a off, but soo hard to tell. It was the app that gave it away for me.
Shaun Hansen
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#68 - 2017-06-10 08:08:11 UTC
Thanks Falcon. 4 of my accounts weren't training. Good thing Im using Evemon :)
Ivan Canasta
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2017-06-11 00:31:33 UTC
Interestingly, ALL of my Omega accounts were paused. NONE of my Alpha accounts were paused.
Maxim Corvinus
Royal Armaments
#70 - 2017-06-11 13:16:06 UTC
It's as if the script didn't have a "if Omega account then end" bit in it.

Not exactly ground breaking coding, now is it.
Tuesdays Takk
Serpent Sun
#71 - 2017-06-11 23:33:01 UTC
Maxim Corvinus wrote:
It's as if the script didn't have a "if Omega account then end" bit in it.

Not exactly ground breaking coding, now is it.

In Dust 514 we lovingly referred to CCP as Can't Code Properly, is this a thing too in Eve? Pirate

If you win the rat race, you're still a rat.

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2017-06-12 05:01:08 UTC
Well I've been out of town for the past 5 days. Have another 36 or so hours till I can next log in. Guess I'll find out then if I've lost a weeks training or not and how badly this is going to screw over my IG finances... might just have to let some of my sp farms switch over to ghost farming for a few weeks to get back on track.
Yazid Zamayid
#73 - 2017-06-12 06:45:19 UTC
Any chance people that exploited this are getting punished? :)

That would take a good ammount of ISK from the inflated market
Maxim Corvinus
Royal Armaments
#74 - 2017-06-12 07:15:45 UTC
Tuesdays Takk wrote:
Maxim Corvinus wrote:
It's as if the script didn't have a "if Omega account then end" bit in it.

Not exactly ground breaking coding, now is it.

In Dust 514 we lovingly referred to CCP as Can't Code Properly, is this a thing too in Eve? Pirate

It's been a thing for 10+ years
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#75 - 2017-06-12 09:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Maxim Corvinus wrote:
Tuesdays Takk wrote:
Maxim Corvinus wrote:
It's as if the script didn't have a "if Omega account then end" bit in it.

Not exactly ground breaking coding, now is it.

In Dust 514 we lovingly referred to CCP as Can't Code Properly, is this a thing too in Eve? Pirate

It's been a thing for 10+ years

Even more relevant.
Swigity Swooty
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2017-06-12 11:04:50 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

Once this process has been completed, we will look to compensate all affected pilots in the coming days with a refund of skillpoints lost due to this issue.

So what's the plan for compensation ?
Uselesss Pig
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#77 - 2017-06-12 15:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Uselesss Pig
I'm really glad you guys are trying to fix this, don't rush it make it a good fix so you don't have to return to it many times.I'm sure you know but many of the raging players are also expecting some kind of a punishment for that part of the players that abused this.If not all those with 100+ chars and/or those who ran it for long time should have atleast their wallets emptied after you guys determine for sure who took advantage of this.This will keep or bring back many of the legit players in the game.I'm sure you are aware what happens to games that allow large exploits to go unpunished.
Ebony Texas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2017-06-13 14:53:42 UTC
where's the sp compensation?

Devin Daye
#79 - 2017-06-13 19:29:29 UTC
Ebony Texas wrote:
where's the sp compensation?

If we distract them enough with these carrier nerfs maybe they'll forget...
Commander Spurty
#80 - 2017-06-15 14:19:54 UTC
If there's something strange in you skill queue
Who you gonna call? (CCP Falcon)
If there's something weird
And it don't look good
Who you gonna call? (CCP Falcon)

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

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