These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#901 - 2017-06-09 21:49:27 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
Does the stupid faction BS Nerf take into account this just as stupid nerf aswell?


Yesterday people complained the Battleship nerf would make Carriers the default king of the meta. Now CCP is dealing with Carriers and people want to cry?

My assumption is they are pushing towards T1 battleships

When I lived in Oasa and ratted anomalies, I used either a Rokh or a Marauder. Carriers were quick, but too slow to get out of dodge if something went wacky.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Ebony Texas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#902 - 2017-06-09 21:54:36 UTC
Kaze Mester wrote:
When you make a lot of isk than you are not a customer anymore.
You just ruin the game.



When CCP is so desperate for cash they pull these microtransactions begging for money then you have these problems..
its called pay to win.. so its their own fault.. seems they don't know how to really assess whats going on in game.

Plex is their creation and its became its own monster which they have to deal with....which they wont they just made it worse cause they need money. this seriously points to a cash grab attempt.. im not believing CCP at all about this crap.. they just came up with the most pathetic excuse forgetting how they nerf'd the NPC bounties back in Null sec not to long ago.. they just wanted to nerf something to top off that nerf patch hitting next week.

singthegrief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#903 - 2017-06-09 21:54:53 UTC
Deathzone Maken wrote:
Oh look, another episode of How to Kill Your Game, by CCP.

Here's a hint. Maybe instead of looking at some arbitrary nerf that doesn't make much sense at all, consider looking at some more relevant things, like the absurd timezone tanking of citadels, or maybe the complete lack of risk of living in one outside of WHs, or maybe fixing Ghost Training. You know, fix stuff thats actually broken.


ok i might have read u wrong but are u saying there is risk to livin i WH tell me who will kill the keep stars in there when u cant even get enough people in with out doing a 1 month seed mission. if i read this wrong carryon friend
singthegrief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#904 - 2017-06-09 21:56:30 UTC
Pimpel Betrak wrote:
so hang on a min there sporty!
so the top 1%..
lets consider that...
you have folks who invest years in the game.
a **** ton of cash and time.
get to the big stuff


you guys don't like it and ...take away the benefit ?
so tell me oh sage of eve? what is the actual point in progressing to hulls that, YOU GUYS DESIGNED ?
we the players are entitled to let you know we are unhappy.

WE PAY YOU FOR IT

too true
Kaze Mester
Perkone
Caldari State
#905 - 2017-06-09 21:59:06 UTC
Ebony Texas wrote:
Kaze Mester wrote:
When you make a lot of isk than you are not a customer anymore.
You just ruin the game.



When CCP is so desperate for cash they pull these microtransactions begging for money then you have these problems..
its called pay to win.. so its their own fault.. seems they don't know how to really assess whats going on in game.

Plex is their creation and its became its own monster which they have to deal with....which they wont they just made it worse cause they need money. this seriously points to a cash grab attempt.. im not believing CCP at all about this crap.. they just came up with the most pathetic excuse forgetting how they nerf'd the NPC bounties back in Null sec not to long ago.. they just wanted to nerf something to top off that nerf patch hitting next week.



Indeed. I wonder what will be the next thing to nerf?!
(I have an awesome idea who to start with: CCP Quant)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#906 - 2017-06-09 22:01:41 UTC
Bron Ander Haltern wrote:
CCP Quant wrote " When you can reliably sit and make 500-780M pure isk/hr** pr. account** " He definitely does not know what he is writting about. Who told them this? Is this a CSM idea about ratting in a carrier/super? That just scares and embarrasses me that they got no idea about the game they make.


No one told him, he's the Data guy at CCP, he has the info at his finger tips. Remember, all regions aren't the same rat wise, and some rats (like for instance rogue drones) have higher base bounties.

Right now CCP quant is getting downvoted into oblivion after he has explained what happening to the EVE economy. It shows that people care more about their imaginary space wallets than they do the health of the EVE economy.
Aldeskwatso
Primus Societas
Crimson Interstellar Alliance
#907 - 2017-06-09 22:02:12 UTC
Any activity that generates excessive amounts of ISK compared to its exposure to risk should be attempted to be rebalanced. So if carriers/supercarriers can be used to make it way to easy to the point it is throwing off a healthy balance between risk vs reward etc. they should be rebalanced somehow to counter this kind of abuse. I understand why some get salty if their cashcows get hurt by this but there is a bigger picture here. It's challenge. In my oppinion its still way to easy to make things easy for yourself to the point ISK is never an obstacle. But it also takes away a lot of challenge. And for me nothing kills a game more then lack of challenge. As a result I avoid activities that abuse an inbalance to generate my ISK and this forces me to look at other means to support myself. And that has changed my outlook on the game a lot in the best way possible. If I didn't do this I would've quit the game because of it.

So I for one am happy CCP does something about these things. And I'm sure those that aren't happy about it now will adapt and gravitate towards the next best thing. As for PvP use. It will likely change but same there as well. If the changes make them obsolete all together I'm sure it will get fixed. And should be fixed. But give people time to come up with creative adaptations.

The biggest obstacle you'll encounter doing anything is yourself.

Ebony Texas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#908 - 2017-06-09 22:03:49 UTC
Kaze Mester wrote:
Ebony Texas wrote:
Kaze Mester wrote:
When you make a lot of isk than you are not a customer anymore.
You just ruin the game.



When CCP is so desperate for cash they pull these microtransactions begging for money then you have these problems..
its called pay to win.. so its their own fault.. seems they don't know how to really assess whats going on in game.

Plex is their creation and its became its own monster which they have to deal with....which they wont they just made it worse cause they need money. this seriously points to a cash grab attempt.. im not believing CCP at all about this crap.. they just came up with the most pathetic excuse forgetting how they nerf'd the NPC bounties back in Null sec not to long ago.. they just wanted to nerf something to top off that nerf patch hitting next week.



Indeed. I wonder what will be the next thing to nerf?!
(I have an awesome idea who to start with: CCP Quant)



they need to nerf a few of those bickering as dev's jobs who refuse to address this community here on this games forums.. instead of running off to that backwood as reddit channels.. freaking cowards! and YES I SAID IT CAUSE ITS TRUE

Krypleria
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#909 - 2017-06-09 22:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Krypleria
I think Titan ratting should be nerfed too.. I hear they print too much isk !

And I just found that the people in the big alliances that carrier and super rat.... are the 1% of the 1%

Btw ..

CCPlease ... PLAY THE GAME before you make comments =/
WhoIsThisIs
Royal Khanid Reverie Reserves
#910 - 2017-06-09 22:04:42 UTC
My fighters are killed enough as it is. Thank you ccp, all the YEARS i spent training these skills was so they could be useless later.
singthegrief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#911 - 2017-06-09 22:04:57 UTC
I want to point one thing out that i havent seen but people have blamed. "plex this" right well someone has to pay for those said plex with real money. So it doesnt matter if i plex a few of my accounts someone it paying for it so stop with that. there not losing out on money from plex if there in the market someone paid for them.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#912 - 2017-06-09 22:08:27 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Well, We have a Response from CCP Quant on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6gaemf/burn_eden_rorcarrieratting_edition/diovza9/
CCP Quant wrote:
What we have here is literally the top 1% of the top 1% screaming their lungs out over these nerfs, while trying to convince the rest of the player-base to think that CCP is ruining the game for everyone. What we are really doing is keeping it from becoming yet another hyper inflated virtual economy at the cost of pissing off a particular group of players. Prior to this patch, a relatively small group of players were making the same amount of isk in npc bounties as the entire player-base did a year ago.
Anyone closely following the MERs will know that NPC bounties are out of control and have been spiralling that way since Citadels. What sort of balanced gameplay is it when you can safely sit in a super making up to 260M ticks? Of course we know that supers are not solely to blame, VNI's, Ishtars, and basically every decent drone platform is responsible for a massive chunk of the bounty pool but not at nearly the same efficiency.
This isn't only screwing with the money supply but it's dramatically increasing RMT. When you can reliably sit and make 500-780M pure isk/hr** pr. account** (hence the number of "unsubbing 17 accounts" threads), some people choose to look at it this way: you can be making over minimum salaries in some countries in RMT.
Then people complain about us nerfing mining when the mineral price index has been in a freefall for a long time and the only reason it's not worse is that the massive increase in mining volume is directly feeding into the e.g. the massive increase in super demand to get in on the bounty grind.
Sure pass some of that rage over to me, I'd be happy to take some heat off CCP Larrikin's and Fozzie's shoulders.

Uh I am definitely not part of the 1%. My net worth is less than 10b. Try again quant.
Objectless Hatred
Cottonmouth Research Institute
Cromwell Exploration Institute
#913 - 2017-06-09 22:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Objectless Hatred
Aldeskwatso wrote:
Any activity that generates excessive amounts of ISK compared to its exposure to risk should be attempted to be rebalanced. So if carriers/supercarriers can be used to make it way to easy to the point it is throwing off a healthy balance between risk vs reward etc. they should be rebalanced somehow to counter this kind of abuse. I understand why some get salty if their cashcows get hurt by this but there is a bigger picture here. It's challenge. In my oppinion its still way to easy to make things easy for yourself to the point ISK is never an obstacle. But it also takes away a lot of challenge. And for me nothing kills a game more then lack of challenge. As a result I avoid activities that abuse an inbalance to generate my ISK and this forces me to look at other means to support myself. And that has changed my outlook on the game a lot in the best way possible. If I didn't do this I would've quit the game because of it.

So I for one am happy CCP does something about these things. And I'm sure those that aren't happy about it now will adapt and gravitate towards the next best thing. As for PvP use. It will likely change but same there as well. If the changes make them obsolete all together I'm sure it will get fixed. And should be fixed. But give people time to come up with creative adaptations.



Abuse? I guess legitimately using a carrier/super to rat in is abuse but running incursions for 23 hours a day in a blinged ship and pod in the safety of high sec with ZERO risk is not abuse...
Kaze Mester
Perkone
Caldari State
#914 - 2017-06-09 22:08:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bron Ander Haltern wrote:
CCP Quant wrote " When you can reliably sit and make 500-780M pure isk/hr** pr. account** " He definitely does not know what he is writting about. Who told them this? Is this a CSM idea about ratting in a carrier/super? That just scares and embarrasses me that they got no idea about the game they make.


No one told him, he's the Data guy at CCP, he has the info at his finger tips. Remember, all regions aren't the same rat wise, and some rats (like for instance rogue drones) have higher base bounties.

Right now CCP quant is getting downvoted into oblivion after he has explained what happening to the EVE economy. It shows that people care more about their imaginary space wallets than they do the health of the EVE economy.


He is getting downvoted because of his "idontgiveafukaboutevecommunity" style not because of his explanation.
They generated their own "problem" and i think this is not the right way to deal with it.
And this "data guy" forgets one really important thing: economy doesn't live without customers.
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#915 - 2017-06-09 22:09:24 UTC
I am happy to see CCP taking action on the subject.
Objectless Hatred
Cottonmouth Research Institute
Cromwell Exploration Institute
#916 - 2017-06-09 22:13:31 UTC
Cyrek Ohaya wrote:
I am happy to see CCP taking action on the subject.


Yeah better they nerf carriers/supers instead of taking action against worthwhile things like SP farms, ghost training, and skill injectors letting noobs fly carriers and supers.
Securitas Protector
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#917 - 2017-06-09 22:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Securitas Protector
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6968992#post6968992].


I'm making a long post that'll probably be wasted here, but **** it, here goes.

What you're doing here makes no sense. I don't mean overall, I mean specifically with the citadel/PVP/PVE changes that you are making. The T3 cruiser change, I think, was handled very well and I look forward to it.

However, your changes for the nullsec game will be disastrous, and here's why.

Risk and reward.

This is the entire idea behind nullsec; the idea that you can go and stake a claim, put money and assets on the line, and receive a reward for taking these risks. This idea was reflected in your changes to the Rorqual; you took a very expensive ship and made it worth using. Despite the fact that it prints ISK and allows the industrialization of nullsec, it also is vulnerable for 5 minutes at a time, giving an aggressive, knowledgeable attacker the opportunity to catch it. Not only that, it provides adequate time via the PANIC to allow a fight to occur.

Excellent game design. High risk, high reward, and an objective that holds value for both the attacker and defender. It really doesn't get better than that.

The problem, is that since citadels and with the impending phase-out of POS, Rorquals have become one of the few remaining reliable fight generators.

Why? Because mining is only half of the nullsec PVE experience, and running anomalies is incredibly safe. CCP, you are right that there is a problem with anomalies; they churn out great ISK for no risk with a carrier or super. They can sit perma-aligned with no timer and have all the time in the world to simply leave. No matter how excellent a tackler is, their skill is completely irrelevant to catching someone in a carrier or super rating. The issue here is that instead of increasing the RISK, you are decreasing the reward. To illustrate:

Now: Low risk, high reward
After patch: Low risk, lower reward
HOW IT SHOULD BE: High risk, high reward

Instead of nerfing fighters, affecting the entire meta, and ironically punishing the people who are probably making ISK on their main (rorquals can be multiboxed almost infinitely, meaning that lowering ISK per hour is less of a hit), you should be making it easier to kill capitals/supers running anomalies. Right now it is risk-free and it will continue to be so after the current changes.

There are myriad ways you could do this; more warp disruption rats(NPC HICs?), NSA disallowing warp, etc. You could even make changes so that Dreadnoughts are the premiere capital PVE ship. Make them the Rorqual of anomalies; they are almost perfect for it. They are stuck for 5 minutes at a time, incentivizing content. They tank well. They could have a PANIC-type module added to incentivize fighting.

Not only does this acheive your goal and decrease the raw amount of ISK being put out, it actively creates interesting conflicts and a cost/benefit to using them. Now, doesn't that sound better than just nerfing something by X%?

Think about what is happening, it's all connected:


  • Citadels are completely awful to deal with as an attacker, so people don't attack them unless absolutely necessary.
  • POS are decreasingly relevant even without their phaseout as Rorquals/Carriers make far more money.
  • Sovwar is laughable in terms of encouraging real fleet-on-fleet warfare
  • Roaming is pointless since tethering makes it impossible to fight over undock control, and everything that's not a Rorqual can easily escape long before you get there unless they **** up
  • There are few incentives to hunt in hostile space; anyone in anomalies is pre-aligned and unless they really make a mistake, are entirely safe


You have effectively created a system where fighting is discouraged(nothing of value to fight over), attacking is discouraged, risk is discouraged, and there is nothing to do except make money in preparation for future conflict. Instead of punishing people for adapting to the environment you've created, why not change the environment?

Force people to make money with risk, but also give them the opportunity to form up and save their ratting ships. Simply hoping that people will fight eachother in the absence of any compelling reason to do so is not enough, and more than that, it's not in EVE's culture. Sure, people can pre-arrange fights now, but these are devoid of meaning since by definition neither side will risk anything it actually cares about.

Give an opportunity for combat to happen in space over the new R64s (Rorquals, carriers, etc). Right now Rorquals, while great, offer the only high-risk/high-reward personal PVE experience.

On a side note; I agree Pirate BS frequency needs to be reduced, but please show T1 BS some love also. They should have a central role in the null PVP meta.

An aside: I have been an active small-to-medium fleet FC for the better part of a decade. I am by no means amazing, but I have a pretty good understanding of how the meta and game design affects daily and short-term content. EVE has never been as "quiet" on a day-to-day basis as it is now; when I consider taking a fleet out, I stop myself. Why bother? I can't force anyone to fight me; they can just sit in a citadel or warp their aligned carrier off when my tackler enters system.

Literally all I do now is hunt rorquals because when I tackle that rorqual, I KNOW something will happen. I may get completely defeated, I may get a rorqual kill, or I might get a fight. Literally all of those options are good, not only for me as an FC but for the health of the game as a whole.

Okay, I'm calling it, that's all I'm gonna write.

Please listen. I love this game. Don't **** it up.
Halo Phase
Elliptical Orbit Inc
Rusty Stargazers
#918 - 2017-06-09 22:15:05 UTC
Oh the bleating will be magnificent. This will be the salt harvest of the year.
Tim Nering
R3d Fire
#919 - 2017-06-09 22:15:11 UTC
singthegrief wrote:
Cordylus1029 wrote:
Nex Gaius wrote:
Yet another quality game change. Lets nerf all the high time / isk investment options. But not the ez ones like Wormholes or Incursions.


Uh...you do realize WH's lost capital escalations? It's completely useless to do them now, we just don't ***** and moan so you probably forgot but it's k. WH's are easier than sitting in null with local and running every time a neut comes in, just commanding fighters around. Yep.

Seriously, you ratting carriers can all rot. There's literally no risk to you in nullsec, if you get caught and die it's 110% your fault.



says the guy who prob rage rolls to get a not descaning ship on grid to point then a whole fleet comes out to kill. and u guys got it easy i use to live in a c4 and if u have hole control u have no need for local and ur prob scanner is ur local if a new anom pops u scan it and roll it off so u have no room to talk friend.


LMAO literally fking clueless

Stop Caring Start Fragging! Join R3D Fire Today!

Ebony Texas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#920 - 2017-06-09 22:16:31 UTC
CCP just ruined the chimera .. the precious block looking thing that never needed a re-image.. thanks ccp.. you just caused another force rebalance on caps.. see this work at hand folks.. they'll hype you up at a fan freaking fest about their cap balance.. just to say oops we need to rebalance a rebalance from before because they just cant get it right on the first go around..


CCP SEAGULL ... PLS HIRE REAL DEV's