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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#2041 - 2017-06-13 06:09:20 UTC
Onjine Anekuro wrote:
I wonder how much even the original changes would impact the problem here. If you reduce carrier damage by 20%, and assuming that translates to a net loss of 10% in bounty income factoring in travel time, etc., it would go from 2.3T to 2.07 for Supercarriers and 2.6T to 2.34T for Carriers.

The effect wouldn't be exactly that strong.
There is that time you spend in warp that has to be accounted for.
And... I don't rat in null, but I don't think the rats are on grid until you've been on grid for a few seconds.

A signature :o
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2042 - 2017-06-13 06:12:46 UTC
xOmGx wrote:
there cant be too much ISK

if you have too much ISK pls send them to me ingame iand i promise i will make them disappear safe and fast


CCP just fails making NPC ISK sinks and ISK accumulated and will be accumulated ingame


Sadly it's obvious this game has turned into CCP and rest of EVE vs Goons.
I'm not a goon but even I can clearly see, also looking into history, they've always been a force to recon with.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2043 - 2017-06-13 06:16:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mossyblog Barnes wrote:
@CCP Larrikin,

I can see you're stating to take a long term view and like all economies you pull the leaver that shudders the most vs one big leaver that fixes all. However, taking the temperature of Delve and declaring all of Eve a risk is where the logic falls short. Cumualtive sure the data trends upwards but the rate of logins trend downwards and i'd wager the kill/death ratio(s) also have a different story (haven't downloaded the entirity of the data set as yet).

Capping the main sources of ISK will slow total wealth and achieve the goal you're attempting to do in terms of reduce the wealth overall, however you lose accounts as a result and / or the attractors to new customer acquisition also takes a hit.

The trade off is where all of this simply falls short. CCP takes away but what does it provide in return? how does this wealth get redirected?

Why is Delve so high?

The duking of stats serves no purpose but to fuel further negativity. Until you treat the root cause all you're doing is essentially reminding players that the games "rules" are always subject to change which in turn also generates further anxiety about adoption.

Imagine if i kept changing the SDK/Frameworks languages you use to build the game?


Inflation destroys wealth on the whole, it does not create it.

And even if ratting in Delve was completely and totally stopped by CCP there would still be too much ISK entering the economy. This is a little bit too much, this a huge ginormous amount of too much ISK entering the economy.

In this case where 2 regions are creating the inflation, it means that while they suffer a minor amount from the inflation, the rest of the game suffers a lot more.

You know business as usual in EvE.


It isn't two regions either.

Look, on average the money supply grew at around 7 billion ISK/month. In May it grew 53 trillion. Even if you took out Deklein and Delve you'd still have something over 500% above average.

This is not 2 regions. It is a systemic problem.

Yes it is a systemic problem with 2 regions sticking out like sore thumbs.

Top 10 regions for bounties.

Delve 8.76918E+12 12.14%
Deklein 4.46455E+12 6.18%
Branch 3.11909E+12 4.32%
Cobalt Edge 2.96567E+12 4.11%
Outer Passage 2.66506E+12 3.69%
Querious 2.6635E+12 3.69%
Feythabolis 2.60413E+12 3.61%
Period Basis 2.46879E+12 3.42%
Providence 2.45647E+12 3.40%
Esoteria 2.37196E+12 3.28%

But like all of the over done crap in Null, if CCP ever try to fix it they will be greeted with a waves of tears so great as to make all that have come before it look like a drip in an ocean.

Now the fact that CCP has caved in to the whining in such a huge manner to a massive alteration to the economy done by such a small number of people has shown everyone else that Null still rules supreme and will be given what ever they want if they cry enough about it.

These changes were even approved by the CSM, yet since their change not one word has been uttered by a CSM member.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mossyblog Barnes
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#2044 - 2017-06-13 06:32:30 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
[quote=Teckos Pech][quote=Mark Marconi][quote=Teckos Pech][quote=Mossyblog Barnes]@CCP Larrikin,

But like all of the over done crap in Null, if CCP ever try to fix it they will be greeted with a waves of tears so great as to make all that have come before it look like a drip in an ocean.

Now the fact that CCP has caved in to the whining in such a huge manner to a massive alteration to the economy done by such a small number of people has shown everyone else that Null still rules supreme and will be given what ever they want if they cry enough about it.

These changes were even approved by the CSM, yet since their change not one word has been uttered by a CSM member.


Waves of tears are always coming.

Never listen to your fans as they dont want change, never listen to your critics as change is all they want. Listen to the ones who have indifference to your change, as they're the ones who influence.

In the end, change is inevitable provided you manage the psychology of it's impact. Nerfing anything in game is a destructive behaviour and in turn you either need to win hearts/minds or trade.

Negative reinforcement with an emphasis on weakening behaviour is whats happening, so them "caving" is not necessarily ground zero of the backlash, its the *way* in which its taken place is what's amplifying the said pain.

Looking back they could of ripped the super/carrier bandaid off without warning. Wait and see the actual behaviour of players vs the vocal response, and use the data then to win hearts/minds on how change was used to influence the goals they are setting..

In the case of wealth slow downs it would have and will backfire which we've covered i think as to that "why".
sakpuncher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2045 - 2017-06-13 06:40:20 UTC
the issue is not the carriers though. they just happen to be the current best ships for ratting therefore they are the prominent ships used for ratting. the ship doesnt matter. the means of makeing the money does. right now you have anoms that just instantly respawn you can endlessly do sites without remorse. and in delve you have this happeing. hundreds of pilots all running sigs. knowing that they just instantly respawn after. yes they use carriers cause that is the fastest way. but in accordance to isk invested/ isk made honestly the VNI is WAAAY above carrier. if your investing that much isk in a ship it should be for a reason. a VNI can litterally pay for itself in a hour and a half to two hours. a carrier despite its ticks takes exponentially longer. it all about the risk/reward and thats what makes eve great dont break that. you want to fix this faucet as you call it make it where the anoms have a respawn timer. or if your really that hellbent on carriers make it where they cant enter specific sites so they have to take a actual risk. i agree something needs done but what your chooseing to do is litterally the WORST possible choice. your nerfing the wrong thing. all this will accomplish is people finding other means to make the same amount of isk. which in turn will just be a calling to nerf another ship. the ship isnt the issue the mechanics are. the only reason its so weighed towards carriers is because thats the currently most cost effective way

or who know maybe you just want people to skill extract all carrier skills into whatever becomes the new flavor of the month so you can line your own pockets. but i mean you wouldnt do that would you
lolz Quekz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2046 - 2017-06-13 06:43:46 UTC
Big smile
at least ccp listened and reduced the overall nerf think it is a reasonable change as of now until a more permanent fix can be decided to reduce capital ratting
venetistrader norie
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#2047 - 2017-06-13 06:44:10 UTC
Guys, you did nerf the 0.0 guys a lot in the past weeks. Just put the rorq in the state that he was before. Let him just boost and don’t play with us. I did train for it now I’m sad. I did train for carriers and now I’m sad. If you make this change make them in 1 week!!! Don’t let it go on for mounts and then nerf it!!!!

And if you want to nerf the fighters more just make them self-destruct as soon as we launch them. Eh, I’m sad :(

BY THE WAY IN A C5 OR 6 YOU CAN MAKE 400-500M AN HOUR. NERF THEM :)
Petros K
C5 Flight
Fraternity.
#2048 - 2017-06-13 06:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Petros K
Introduce a new taxing system (just like real life works )

Monthly tax(or weekly after the server RR ) the income money(may it be bounties , contract payments , ANYTHING that goes into wallet ) of each player with scaling factors .

ex

2.5% tax if your income was between 1 and 5billions
5% tax for 5.000.0001 isk earned up to 10billions

You get my point .




This would BALANCE the enormous incomes of people , but still be save for smaller fish .
Punish the overproduction , not common people who rat for couples hours per day .
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#2049 - 2017-06-13 07:00:54 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June.


Holy ****, are you kidding me?

I would not even have passed the first year in my scientific studies (chemical engineering)...


Nice, I have spent ZERO $ for EVE Online in the last five days!
I am the worst customer!


Come on guys, what are you doing?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2050 - 2017-06-13 07:24:41 UTC
Will admit it is crap like this why I avoid the forums.

CCP come out with data

The Data:
Let’s set the stage for the decision by taking sample of 5 days in June. During that timeframe 10.6 Trillion ISK was rewarded in bounties. Of that:

22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers
19.1% (2T) of the ISK was generated by 16.6% of characters earning bounties, using T1 Cruisers

Just under half (46.5%) of the bounties earned during the time period was generated by Supercarriers and Carriers, meaning a small percent of the population received a huge portion of the total bounties.

They come out with a solution.

Then Null cries and CCP folds.

And if you are not a member of the big blue donut, it shows just how much you matter to CCP.

Not at All.

Null will continue to grow huge fortunes in bounties, in an environment where even the targeting of fighters by NPCs is to much for the Null bears to take and everyone else dies by inflation.

As someone who likes Wormhole space and Hi-sec, I don't even feel like an after thought in this game any more.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#2051 - 2017-06-13 07:32:35 UTC
xOmGx wrote:
Sov system does NOT encourage deploying and or use of capitalships

CCP need to go back to SOV blocade units and or POS warfire (POS warfire will boost need for POS and POS fuel and so)

Create / go back to NPC fuel blocks (yes yes abandon planetary stuff)
...
TO remove ISK you have to make NPC relates ISK sinks NOT the relocation due to player to player trade


I agree, keeping POS warfare active is one solution. The need then arises for POS emplacement to keep supplementing the newer sov mechanics but to a further extent (TCU upgrades could require a certain % of system moons seeded under the same sov holder).

If PI is too profitable, merge it with moon mining UI where POS operators can utilize some amount of control on command center saturation of their satellite's host planet. Reintroduce orbital bombardment ammo, now for structure weapons / weapon upgrades, so that one moon can stake a claim against another moon's futile PI efforts.

I will try to catch up on the more recent info, but please let me know your thoughts xOmGx.
Slave Endoma
Exterminated
#2052 - 2017-06-13 08:02:47 UTC
Since 2004 I have suffered many upheavals and major changes, but what happens to this game over the past 2 years is really extreme.
You guys from CCP have proven from long time, that I'm not important to you. Stop pushing me! It's true that I'm stubborn, but finally I will get tired and will leave you to destroy all that we have built together last 15 years.
Seem you have forgotten that at the base of your richness is my enjoyment.
Without me, you are just a pixel, one of many others.

Enjoy your destruction.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2053 - 2017-06-13 08:03:48 UTC
Keep everything in liquid isk is the only long term solution, seeing how assets get **** all over by nerfs all the time and how game mechanics gets changed and **** you up if you are aspiring to become anything of worth in here.
Objectless Hatred
Cottonmouth Research Institute
Cromwell Exploration Institute
#2054 - 2017-06-13 08:07:04 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
With the new changes I must ask

why the NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)

That was probably the most sensible change there in and the one that no one was complaining about.



fighters already get curbstomped if they stop moving for more than about 10 seconds.. 15% more aggression is not needed.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2055 - 2017-06-13 08:11:02 UTC
Objectless Hatred wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
With the new changes I must ask

why the NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)

That was probably the most sensible change there in and the one that no one was complaining about.



fighters already get curbstomped if they stop moving for more than about 10 seconds.. 15% more aggression is not needed.

Yeah curb stomped.

22.3% (2.3T) of the ISK was generated by 1.4% of characters earning bounties, using Supercarriers
24.2% (2.6T) of the ISK was generated by 4.8% of characters earning bounties, using Carriers

Curb stomped must mean something different where you come from.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
sakpuncher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2056 - 2017-06-13 08:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: sakpuncher
as i said before the revision isnt enough. they are going about it the wrong way. does the isk faucet need nerfed. sure. but nerfing carriers isnt the answer thats just going to (if it couldnt be more obvious) **** everyone off. nerf the ability to endlessly chain anoms. sure it will **** off those regions with 50-60 people in each system doing nothing but anoms in 100% safety but it will leave your game in tact. the issue isnt the carriers its the unlimited anoms. theres also the underlying issue of hey why try to war and expand if we can just sit here and never run out of isk to print. this change would also be a side fix to the sov issues without haveing to fix sov because it would give reason to expand.

and honestly CCP the damage is kinda already done. im a small guy in a small null corp that doesnt even have a carrier yet myself. given its something ive been training twards and building twards for a while now. to me all my time has been wasted because endgame (at least from a small players perspective) has just been pulled out from under me like a rug. at this point its no longer some rageing threat saying im going to unsub. at this point its what is going to be done to make me resub. like i said the damage is already done. at least from my perspective. and while i dont speak for everyone. i can assume that many think like me. and frankly between the above mentioned reasons and frankly the way your mods have treated me here. what is the draw to come back now? its all left a very very sour taste in my mouth
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2057 - 2017-06-13 08:15:01 UTC
Weak.
ottomans proud
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2058 - 2017-06-13 08:15:38 UTC
Instead of nerf the fighter nerf the player who rat all day. It is not fait for those player who has only 1-2 hour for ratting.
You can think about the limitation for each player for ratting a day for example

first 2 hour the damage is by % 100 after

3 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 95
4 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 90

like this you can calculate this and i think everyone will be happy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2059 - 2017-06-13 08:23:24 UTC
ottomans proud wrote:
Instead of nerf the fighter nerf the player who rat all day. It is not fait for those player who has only 1-2 hour for ratting.
You can think about the limitation for each player for ratting a day for example

first 2 hour the damage is by % 100 after

3 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 95
4 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 90

like this you can calculate this and i think everyone will be happy.


So if I only get one day to go ratting I should be screwed over?
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#2060 - 2017-06-13 08:26:14 UTC
ottomans proud wrote:
Instead of nerf the fighter nerf the player who rat all day. It is not fait for those player who has only 1-2 hour for ratting.
You can think about the limitation for each player for ratting a day for example

first 2 hour the damage is by % 100 after

3 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 95
4 hour nerf the fighter damage down to % 90

like this you can calculate this and i think everyone will be happy.


Should we cripple Ussain Bolt so that you can keep up cause he's too fast for you, dullard?