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IDEA: Dreads - becoming tres expensive. How about a mini dread?

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Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#101 - 2012-01-03 11:46:17 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
"Shoals" don't need to be huge. Also, there's a lot to be said for throwing cheap ships at caps. How many dreads do you think you'll take down with 10-20 gankfit BS before you're taken down, and how much more efficient, price-wise, do you think that'd be than a 500m "minidread"?

And I think you'd find it wholly price inefficient to throw bhaalgorns into such fights.


It only takes about 2-3 nuet phoons/domi's to cap a sieged dread in 2-3 cycles

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#102 - 2012-01-03 15:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Siege Module I wrote:

Due to the ionic field created by the siege module, remote effects like warp scrambling et al. will not affect the ship while in siege mode.

This also means that friendly remote effects will not work while in siege mode either.


Or are "Energy Neutralisers" not counted in the "remote effects"? gonna have to go to SISI and **** around now Smile

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#103 - 2012-01-03 15:36:04 UTC
Dreads have always been expensive to field, if they are spiking now then is probably due to no one actively building them prior to patch because of :supers: .. once the assembly lines start up again prices will come back down.

The idea that a 'cheaper' hull would benefit smaller entities has one rather big flaw, if it benefits the little'uns then it benefits the big'uns even more. You'd need to impose ridiculous drawbacks (like on current Dreads) to avoid the obvious spam-to-win.

At any rate, you don't actually have to add an entirely new hull .. one could just introduce a 'civilian' siege module that is usable by T2 BS. Hits the target price fairly well, could help BlackOps make the decision to follow the taxi clients through to destination and give Marauders a purpose/place in PvP.
* by civilian module I mean with not quite so high numbers attached, aim at 2-2.5x damage modifier giving them roughly 1/3rd the output of real dreads.
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-01-03 18:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hadez411
Lord Zim wrote:
Thus far, the main assumed positive to come out of this that I've seen is we'll get something to make hisec POS bashing easier. My main reservation is that it might make dreads less desired, and they've already been marginalized for 2 years due to the supercaps buff. I've no idea if they're "back in fashion" with the slew of changes crucible brought to both them and supercaps, but I'm fearing that making a subcap that's fairly close to a sieged dread (I call half the dps fairly close) without the hefty skill requirements that comes with going for capitals, will also marginalize the dreads.


one third the dps by my calculations.. and if its skills are the same as t2 bs ( bs V, advanced weps V, tact wep reconfig) it'll be all but the same training for dread except the nav skills for cyno jumping.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-01-03 20:36:55 UTC
And capital weapons.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jenshae Chiroptera
#106 - 2012-01-03 20:40:02 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
I've always wanted something ...


Shocked

Me too! I kinda want this sorta thing that has a whatsit and the thing may or may not do something when a battleship is there for like the ding-a-ma-jig which finds out the thing-a-ma-bob has a something or other when it flies near that other thing. P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-01-03 22:07:23 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Hadez411 wrote:
I've always wanted something ...


Shocked

Me too! I kinda want this sorta thing that has a whatsit and the thing may or may not do something when a battleship is there for like the ding-a-ma-jig which finds out the thing-a-ma-bob has a something or other when it flies near that other thing. P



See. Someone finally gets it.
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-01-03 22:10:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And capital weapons.


True.. but training cap weps is a joke compared to t2 large weps. Depends on whether this thing would take the shape of a ship that can fit a cap gun or a ship that just uses a siege module w/ regular guns I guess.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#109 - 2012-01-03 23:36:23 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And capital weapons.


True.. but training cap weps is a joke compared to t2 large weps. Depends on whether this thing would take the shape of a ship that can fit a cap gun or a ship that just uses a siege module w/ regular guns I guess.


And Jump Skills.

15d Warp Drive 5 (I'm not sure how many subcap pilots ever train that)

20-25d JDO 1-5

10-15d JFC 1-4

10-15d(45d) JDC 1-4(5)

That's a significant amount of time.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-01-04 00:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hadez411
RubyPorto wrote:
Hadez411 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And capital weapons.


True.. but training cap weps is a joke compared to t2 large weps. Depends on whether this thing would take the shape of a ship that can fit a cap gun or a ship that just uses a siege module w/ regular guns I guess.


And Jump Skills.

15d Warp Drive 5 (I'm not sure how many subcap pilots ever train that)

20-25d JDO 1-5

10-15d JFC 1-4

10-15d(45d) JDC 1-4(5)

That's a significant amount of time.


You continue to amaze me with your inability to read.

Hadez411 wrote:

...all but the same training for dread except the nav skills for cyno jumping.


The useable minimum for getting into a dread and being able to jump is alot less than what you've posted. More like just jump drive operation 3. As is my alt who simply hops his carrier short distanes to wormholes. Maybe like 15d Warp Drive 5, 1-2 days JDO 3. An 18 day difference and a massive difference in the ships being compared. Anything further is your own desire to jump many more systems at a time, something this ship wouldnt be able to do. So comparing the trade off between being able to cyno vs. traveling highsec 1 jump at a time... like comparing two different animals.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-01-04 01:12:26 UTC
The common minimum JDC for dreads isn't 3, it's 4. 5 is preferable, but 4 is a "nice middleground". You can downplay the amount of time to train into a dread effectively, as much as you want, but it is a cockstab of a few months of nothing but cap skills.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#112 - 2012-01-04 01:15:55 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
The useable minimum for getting into a dread and being able to jump is alot less than what you've posted. More like just jump drive operation 3. As is my alt who simply hops his carrier short distanes to wormholes. Maybe like 15d Warp Drive 5, 1-2 days JDO 3. An 18 day difference and a massive difference in the ships being compared. Anything further is your own desire to jump many more systems at a time, something this ship wouldnt be able to do. So comparing the trade off between being able to cyno vs. traveling highsec 1 jump at a time... like comparing two different animals.


Useable Dread.... No JDC... Useable Dread.... No JDC....

I'm sorry, I really don't follow you.


A Jump Drive is mostly a disadvantage on a Dread. Your Subcap fleet still has to make it to your target system by gates (or Titan bridge). If I could put anywhere close to the DPS of a Dread on field without worrying about Cyno chains (especially with no JDC Roll), without worrying about Cyno Jammers, etc. I would get a stiffy so big, and so long lasting I'd never be able to wear jeans again.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#113 - 2012-01-04 09:18:53 UTC
Ion Frigates from Homeworld are what we need.

In Eve terms:
- Fragile and relatively cumbersome (Cruiser/Hac tank+sig and mobility between somewhere BC and BS)
- High dps single target weapon that can only lock onto signatures of a certain size (BS running MWD and up for instance).
- Immobilized while weapon is active.

Don't tell me the Empires have not been spending trillions of ISK researching and perfecting a human made version of the super-weapon Jamyl Sarum used to wipe out the Elder fleet!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#114 - 2012-01-04 09:50:50 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And capital weapons.


True.. but training cap weps is a joke compared to t2 large weps. Depends on whether this thing would take the shape of a ship that can fit a cap gun or a ship that just uses a siege module w/ regular guns I guess.


As it is to train for t2 medium weapons compared to training for large t1 weapons.

Just add t2 cap weapons. Problem solved.

Actually, no. I lie.

Also add t1 anti-sub cap weapons for the dread & Titan classes.

Expand the capital hull range for all types, giving us new variants to play with. IF a battleship can have 3 hull types with multiple t2 spin off variants, then I guess its fair to say the caps deserve the same treatment.

Stop adding more and more sub caps to Sub-caps online. We haz enough already.

We need more whales.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-01-04 09:55:37 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Also add t1 anti-sub cap weapons for the dread & Titan classes.

Uh. As if titans need better guns against subcaps.

And it's not like they can't fit lower-tier guns if they feel like they absolutely must.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#116 - 2012-01-04 10:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Lord Zim wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Also add t1 anti-sub cap weapons for the dread & Titan classes.

Uh. As if titans need better guns against subcaps.

And it's not like they can't fit lower-tier guns if they feel like they absolutely must.


its not like the bc needed large guns either... but you got that.

Now your asking for a sub cap with cap guns.

So give whales some of the same love. Give caps anti-sub cap guns. And I'm not talking about small rails either. I'm on about a capital EoA anti sub cap weapon that can fire at range.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-01-04 10:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Asuka Solo wrote:
Now your asking for a sub cap with cap guns.

If you're going to blame this on someone, at least get it right. I'm one of those mostly against this because I see no real point to it (and I fear it'll marginalize dreads).

Asuka Solo wrote:
So give whales some of the same love. Give caps anti-sub cap guns. And I'm not talking about small rails either. I'm on about a capital EoA anti sub cap weapon that can fire at range.

Also, **** this. **** it with a big rubber dildo. This is a horrible idea, we've gone away from this for a reason.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#118 - 2012-01-04 11:12:02 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I'm on about a capital EoA anti sub cap weapon that can fire at range.


Sorry, I thought you said you wanted a Titan Stealth Bomber. Must be hard of hearing.


Wait.... you did say that. Oops

I'm talking to a moron. Shocked

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#119 - 2012-01-04 12:00:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Now your asking for a sub cap with cap guns.

If you're going to blame this on someone, at least get it right. I'm one of those mostly against this because I see no real point to it (and I fear it'll marginalize dreads).

Asuka Solo wrote:
So give whales some of the same love. Give caps anti-sub cap guns. And I'm not talking about small rails either. I'm on about a capital EoA anti sub cap weapon that can fire at range.

Also, **** this. **** it with a big rubber dildo. This is a horrible idea, we've gone away from this for a reason.


Read between the lines.

Your = this topic's general consensus.

There is no iwin button in eve. Nor should there be a "i-hazCapGunsOnMahSubcap" button, if caps dont get the same face lift.

RubyPorto wrote:

Sorry, I thought you said you wanted a Titan Stealth Bomber.

I'm talking to a moron. Shocked


Kinda says allot about your intelligence don't it?

Show me where I mentioned the words cov ops cloak or bombs while talking about an AoE anti-sub cap ranged weapon.

Now if you wanted to pull stupid ideas out of thin air..... a cov ops titan with bombs would take the cake. Then again, you did say that.

So now that we've established that your only viable concept of an AoE weapon is a smartbomb or a plain bomb, move along.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-01-04 12:12:49 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
There is no iwin button in eve. Nor should there be a "i-hazCapGunsOnMahSubcap" button, if caps dont get the same face lift.

So instead you want an AoE weapon on titans, which we've already established sucks complete ass and isn't worth the code it's programmed with?

Hum.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat