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IDEA: Dreads - becoming tres expensive. How about a mini dread?

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-01-02 10:42:16 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Honestly, I'd be much more in favor of increasing the granularity of the SOV system, and decreasing the HP of said structures, than add even more ships to the mix. You know the SOV system needs work.


We disagree on many things, but this...this is common ground. Who knows, you may come around on the whole local idea after all! There is hope for all Goons!!!

If you're thinking about "remove local" or "remove cloaked ships from local", don't hold your breath. At least not without adding a counter to cloaks so aggressive cloaked ships can be detected by vigilent players.

Don't touch my local (or at the very least, don't make it suck dilz), and I won't touch your cloak.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-01-02 20:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hadez411
ShahFluffers wrote:
Oooo oooo!!! Question!!

What's to stop a 500 man alliance from fielding 500 of these "more versatile" Tech 3 battleships that deal damage similar to a dreadnought but are more mobile, cheaper, and possess less logistical hassles than a dreadnought? Hell... why buy/field a dreadnought at all when you have a more mobile, cheaper, and less logistically clumsy ships at the cost of only half the DPS?


Because seeing as they are in siege, cannot be repaired by logi's, they will go down like a ton of bricks with how flimsy they are compared to a fleet of dreads that can tank a wicked amount of dps or have massive buffers in comparison to some gank fit battleship that cant move or be repped by anything.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-01-02 20:23:02 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Honestly, I'd be much more in favor of increasing the granularity of the SOV system, and decreasing the HP of said structures, than add even more ships to the mix. You know the SOV system needs work.


We disagree on many things, but this...this is common ground. Who knows, you may come around on the whole local idea after all! There is hope for all Goons!!!

If you're thinking about "remove local" or "remove cloaked ships from local", don't hold your breath. At least not without adding a counter to cloaks so aggressive cloaked ships can be detected by vigilent players.

Don't touch my local (or at the very least, don't make it suck dilz), and I won't touch your cloak.


So the cold war begins.

As a side note, I have repeatedly suggested alternative intel ideas, but thats off topic for the thread.

Mini dreads would be bad as they would be mass spammed by larger alliances. A fleet of 1000+ 400 mil minidreads is something you would see the larger alliances fielding. Dreads as they stand are vulnerable to many things, and it is good that it is this way.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#64 - 2012-01-02 20:30:47 UTC
Let's not forget the potential most common use for such a ship: Ganks.

I was even thinking it might be better to drop that "Dreadfully-mini Dread" up there to 6 highslots from 7, and give it only 5 turret hardpoints to reduce the potential output DPS which still seems a little high. It was around then that I noticed how easily such a ship could out DPS the Concord timer when suicide ganking.

Granted, it's a pretty expensive ship to be suicide ganking in, but there remains the theoretical possibility of either multiple ganks or ganks of FactionCruisers and the like before Concord blows it to pieces.

Primarily the fact that it could go sit on an Ice belt full of Macks and Hulks, enter siege mode, select targets and commence firing until Concord arrives. That has the potential for a lethal amount of damage; possibly exceeding the value of the ship itself.

Not particularly familiar with suicide ganking, but if 3 Destroyers can gank a single Mack/Hulk before Concord arrives; why not one of these multiple. One per gun. They're slow, not highly maneuverable, and most often not paying attention.

Slow lock times would normally prevent the same vs. Faction Cruisers and the like, but we all know there's modules for that.

Still, not sure it's out of balance because of that.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#65 - 2012-01-02 20:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Honestly, I'd be much more in favor of increasing the granularity of the SOV system, and decreasing the HP of said structures, than add even more ships to the mix. You know the SOV system needs work.


We disagree on many things, but this...this is common ground. Who knows, you may come around on the whole local idea after all! There is hope for all Goons!!!

If you're thinking about "remove local" or "remove cloaked ships from local", don't hold your breath. At least not without adding a counter to cloaks so aggressive cloaked ships can be detected by vigilent players.

Don't touch my local (or at the very least, don't make it suck dilz), and I won't touch your cloak.


So the cold war begins.

As a side note, I have repeatedly suggested alternative intel ideas, but thats off topic for the thread.

Mini dreads would be bad as they would be mass spammed by larger alliances. A fleet of 1000+ 400 mil minidreads is something you would see the larger alliances fielding. Dreads as they stand are vulnerable to many things, and it is good that it is this way.



I think the lack of mobility in siege mode, and limited DPS/EHP outside of Siege mode, precludes them being used this way. At least given the example I showed. A substantial buffer tank would certainly be possible; but once it enters siege it's effectively a sitting duck. Much easier to shoot than a moving duck.

Also, with spamming Capitals, Carriers, Supercarriers, and Titans; I don't see how this is a problem. Their only real benefit is mobility outside fo the battlefield.

edit: Granted, Alliances like spamming, and more than one of anything is usually seen as a good thing. i.e: 400 of these would be a lot harder to kill or out DPS than any number less than that.

Putting that many on the field would effectively guarantee initial superiority, though, once they have entered siege, you may feel free to take the battle elsewhere.
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#66 - 2012-01-02 20:40:03 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Honestly, I'd be much more in favor of increasing the granularity of the SOV system, and decreasing the HP of said structures, than add even more ships to the mix. You know the SOV system needs work.



Sov stuff, yes ... but there has to be enough EHP on POS to make it not worth your time (i.e. sov holding alliances) to come through some random lowsec and RF every tower in that system over the course of an hour or two...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-01-02 21:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Hadez411
Quote:

Mini dreads would be bad as they would be mass spammed by larger alliances. A fleet of 1000+ 400 mil minidreads is something you would see the larger alliances fielding. Dreads as they stand are vulnerable to many things, and it is good that it is this way.



Yeah, they would be spammed.. but they'd also be taken down quite easily. 1000 flimsy battleships that cant receive aid or track worth a damn, getting bombed or jumped on by regular battleships is going to ripped apart very quickly. Compared to dreads that would take quite a long time to take down, that you would need less of to do the same sieging dps and would have more pilots free to run a support fleet... they'd be a choice of tactics. That and losing a ton of these (as is the popular number) 400m battleships compared to less dreads.. it may not be such a great idea to use them all the time.

I'd say a more reasonable dps is 2500 on the low end and 4500 on the etremely flimsy and gank fit end, in siege that is.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#68 - 2012-01-02 21:33:59 UTC
It may be more practical to introduce a Siege module for BS that has some reduced penalties, much lower PG requirements, and only gives say a ~250% bonus to DPS.
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Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-01-02 21:36:57 UTC
It'd be nice if CCP got more involved in these conversations and layed out some absolutes that had to be adhered to for this theoreticl ship to be considered.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#70 - 2012-01-02 22:53:27 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
It'd be nice if CCP got more involved in these conversations and layed out some absolutes that had to be adhered to for this theoreticl ship to be considered.



And we have a Winner!

First person to ask for Dev comments in this thread.


It's widely known that 1, Devs don't respond to that and 2, Devs post on all *good* ideas in F&I.


As for getting a new shiptype considered, it would probably have to fix a problem that only a new ship can fix. Since there's no problem for this ship to fix....... uh, what's 2+2 make again?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-01-02 22:58:23 UTC
Technically speaking, what problem do the tier 3 BCs solve? :P

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-01-02 23:02:25 UTC
Way to not read anything but the last comment Porto. 2 + 2 = ... as far back as you're able to read?

The "problem" if there needed to be one, as Zim said with the tier3 BC's, is highsec pos bashing and alternatives to Dreads for small-scale warfare.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#73 - 2012-01-02 23:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Lord Zim wrote:
Technically speaking, what problem do the tier 3 BCs solve? :P


.... Fair point. I don't know. But they're cool where a mini-dread isn't...


EDIT: Oh, I remember. The T3 BCs weren't introduced because another ship was starting to get really expensive, and thus some people couldn't hack it and wanted an el-cheapo version.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Cur
Back Door Burglars
#74 - 2012-01-02 23:17:02 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
I've always wanted something inbetween battleships and massive capital ships. Now I know that the idea is that there are capitals then super capitals... but the dps jump and cost jump is very large between BS and capital... or so I feel.
My idea would be something along the lines of the tier 3 BC's... it packs a punch, but it dies faster. All that but easier to manufacture and lower material cost. A more disposable dread if you will. Somewhat like the orca is to the rorqual, if that makes any sense to you. Big, slow, capable and more pricey than your typical industrials but not a rorqual by any means.

I think this would allow a bit more action from smaller bodies of players who could now instead of only fielding one dread, can field a handful of these smaller ones with less skilled pilots and less money and if the bigger better pilots with dreads come along, oops ur all of a sudden fighting battleships with cruisers, in terms of proportion.

I contemplate the possibility of them having inherent tracking bonuses to make them hit battleships a little bit. That or maybe throwing off the tracking idea and making them have even worse tracking, but no need for a siege module and short cyno range.

Throw your ideas in, it's just that, an idea. :)


Here's some other random ideas:

- A kind of ship that requires 2 or 3 of the same ship with the same module on them to activate a mini-doomsday or some kind of module that has a pretty big effect but requires you have a handful of people working in unison to acheive it. OR a sort of linking with another ship, which renders you in a siege-like mode of being immobile, but give the receiver an alpha that gets bigger with the more people feeding into it.



It takes a single dread, 1 hour, to re-enforce a small tower, that's being sieged the entire time too.

And you want a minidread?

If you cannot afford a dread, then i suggest you stay the hell away from 0.0 space.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2012-01-02 23:23:04 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
Way to not read anything but the last comment Porto. 2 + 2 = ... as far back as you're able to read?

The "problem" if there needed to be one, as Zim said with the tier3 BC's, is highsec pos bashing and alternatives to Dreads for small-scale warfare.


Right now, hisec POS bashing is irrelevant (because it's impossible) due to the DecShield mechanic.

If you can field the numbers, SBs will field the DPS of a dread fleet for much less isk, risk, and logistical hassle. If you can field the Isk, a small (full sized)Dread fleet will do that job. If you can't field those numbers or that Isk, you'll just have to spend the time. Right now POS bashing is a Numbers-Isk-Time triangle.

You can have it done fast, cheap, or with little manpower, pick 2.

If the enemy can kill or drive you off before you've spent enough time, welp, guess you picked the wrong fight.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#76 - 2012-01-02 23:27:14 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Technically speaking, what problem do the tier 3 BCs solve? :P

Needing to train minmatar BS to be able to camp jita effectively. Now you can do it with min cruiser 3 and a couple of levels of Battlecruisers!
Monty Kvaran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-01-02 23:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Monty Kvaran
Suggestion, allow regular BS to be refit for seige with a rig/module combo

Highslot - Light Siege Module I
PG - 12,000
CPU - 100
+100% damage modifier
+100% RoF modifier
Immobile
No tank bonus
-50% tracking
+200% Signature Radius of ship
-50% signature resolution
+100% to gun signature
Not immune to ewar
No active tank bonus
Immune to remote reps
Uses fuel
Cost - About 100m

Rig - Siege Warfare Preparations
-50% Reduced power grid use of Light Siege Modules
-20% tracking
150 Calibration
Cost - About 100m

You could either skip the rigs, and have a slight dps increase while in siege mode, but not be able to fit many guns or much tank due to power grid shortage, or permanently gimp your tracking with the rigs, but have most of your power grid available for guns/tank.

Being an immobile, very expensive battleship, without tank bonuses, and with no remote reps will make the ship a sitting duck, and will greatly balance the dps boost while seiged. It will also avoid supplanting regular dreads.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#78 - 2012-01-02 23:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Being someone who actually took the time to shoot at a Large POS solo, in a Drake, until I ran out of ammo, to the net result of a bare sliver of red; I can see why someone would want a mini-dread for Highsec POS bashing.

edit: I might add that the tower didn't have any resists.
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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-01-03 00:16:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Technically speaking, what problem do the tier 3 BCs solve? :P


.... Fair point. I don't know. But they're cool where a mini-dread isn't...

EDIT: Oh, I remember. The T3 BCs weren't introduced because another ship was starting to get really expensive, and thus some people couldn't hack it and wanted an el-cheapo version.

Actually, I think it can be summed up very simply: CCP is bribing the players.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#80 - 2012-01-03 00:19:18 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Being someone who actually took the time to shoot at a Large POS solo, in a Drake, until I ran out of ammo, to the net result of a bare sliver of red; I can see why someone would want a mini-dread for Highsec POS bashing.

edit: I might add that the tower didn't have any resists.


HISec POSes are best bashed with a Domi with lasers and Sentries. ~900 DPS, cap stable and insured loss of less than 20m. Then go to sleep and when you wake up to a bashed POS.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon