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[Summer] Pirate Battleship Cost Intervention

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Author
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2017-06-11 04:56:38 UTC
disgree none of the other bses are worth using except maybe hype
buffing pirate bs prices doesnt suddenly make other bses worth using
or taking into fights
we just see even less bses in fights than we do currently
of course ccp only cares about csm fleet doctrine experience

Gustav Gomez
Offshore Banking Inc.
#182 - 2017-06-11 05:54:25 UTC
I worry that your balance team has really come off the rails. You're making changes on two fronts - the mineral costs (prices will increase from rorq nerfs) and bpc costs (reduced drops). You have no idea how effective either of these moves is going to be, you're just reacting like it's an emergency when this trend has been an obvious problem for more than 6 months....

It's time for a timeout. Huddle up with the team, reassess where you are right now. Prioritize what players actually care about and what is actually going to have a detrimental effect on the game in the near term. Change your roadmap and fix this, you probably still have time before we just log out. gl, really.
Alexander Draegar
ChemiKals
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2017-06-11 21:41:58 UTC
So, what'll happen in situations where individual players cannot obtain a BPC at a reasonable cost in terms of ISK or effort?

The reason that large alliances are able to easily get a hold of these things is because they are just that: large alliances with lots of players, who are able to simply warp in, destroy everything in a single pass, collect every scrap of good loot, then warp to the next similar site. This is much the reason why BPC costs are as low as they are. Wealth tends to beget more wealth, and these guys have a LOT of resources (players, ships, and ISK) to work with from the start.

For individual players though, it's a much different story. We have to work our tails off to get a single copy of a pirate battleship print, and even then it's sometimes too expensive to build for us, and/or we don't have the skills or materials to make use of our hard-won prizes. Even then, when we're all done we've got ONE pirate battleship that we've put together ourselves. Or, we've got ONE that we've worked hard earning enough ISK to buy on our own.

What'll happen with both groups (and those in between) during an economic re-balance of these hulls and their cost to drop & build?

"To kick ass harder, swing foot faster. To kick more ass, keep swinging foot!"

~Alexander Draegar

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#184 - 2017-06-11 22:01:53 UTC
Alexander Draegar wrote:
So, what'll happen in situations where individual players cannot obtain a BPC at a reasonable cost in terms of ISK or effort?

The reason that large alliances are able to easily get a hold of these things is because they are just that: large alliances with lots of players, who are able to simply warp in, destroy everything in a single pass, collect every scrap of good loot, then warp to the next similar site. This is much the reason why BPC costs are as low as they are. Wealth tends to beget more wealth, and these guys have a LOT of resources (players, ships, and ISK) to work with from the start.

For individual players though, it's a much different story. We have to work our tails off to get a single copy of a pirate battleship print, and even then it's sometimes too expensive to build for us, and/or we don't have the skills or materials to make use of our hard-won prizes. Even then, when we're all done we've got ONE pirate battleship that we've put together ourselves. Or, we've got ONE that we've worked hard earning enough ISK to buy on our own.

What'll happen with both groups (and those in between) during an economic re-balance of these hulls and their cost to drop & build?



1.) are you not in F-Con? is that not a null group like your talking about there?

2.) If people want a level playing field( I am sure they do not) then they should agree to push towards regulating all Faction prints of this nature to the Loyalty Point stores and stop having them as drops.
Thayer Anzomi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#185 - 2017-06-12 00:02:01 UTC
This change is going to make me have to sit down and think if I really want to work that hard to play a game.

It's unfortunate that the development team thinks the game needs to head in this direction, and I think it's going to lead to many players being unwilling to risk a ship to engage in PvP. It's hard enough as it is to get started in this game and work your way into better ships.

Now you're talking about making it twice as hard (going by the market prices I saw today.)

That doesn't even sound fun.

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#186 - 2017-06-12 05:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
JC Mieyli wrote:
disgree none of the other bses are worth using except maybe hype
buffing pirate bs prices doesnt suddenly make other bses worth using
or taking into fights
we just see even less bses in fights than we do currently
of course ccp only cares about csm fleet doctrine experience





Fortunately you're agreeing or disagreeing is utterly irrelevant, as history has strongly indicated you are fabulously wrong. In fact, current events in Eve also do. Maelstroms vs Machariels. Maelstroms are cheap, do the job, easy to replace. Machs are better than maelstroms, but they are more expensive as well. The advent of mach's being used as main null doctrines is fairly new in Eve's history, as they became cheaper and more available. Before that, it was very heavily weighted toward maelstroms, rokhs, and megathrons, with machs being more small gang, PVE, or 'quality over quantity' pvp groups. Up until this recent price hike, if you're not trying to put a bunch of new players in alpha platforms, there is no real reason to use a maelstrom over a mach because a mach does everything, better.


Fixing the target price problem absolutely fixes the worth using problem. It raises the bar at which pirate bs are worth using/risking, allowing for the other BS to have a bar at all, as until this, they by and large do not because pirate bs are so cheap.

You're also trying to compare apples to oranges in that you're talking about BS vs everything else(when we know T3C's are stupid broken and CCP is only now JUST getting to them), as opposed to talking about battleship usage compared to pirate BS usage.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2017-06-12 05:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
if you think comparing ships in the meta is like comparing apples and oranges it shows how clueless you are
if you think one meta doesnt affect another
and the only way you can make a point is by going on about the garbage fleet doctrines
for fights that dont happen anymore
and are boring as hell
countering my point that ccp only cares about garbage fleet doctrine by using fleet doctrine as an argument sigh

also id like to see what you think im fabulously wrong about
Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#188 - 2017-06-12 09:23:08 UTC

Flying a BS only to have it crippled into a brick in space by a single ECM boat sitting 100KM out is what one of the biggest problems right now revolves around.

CCP won't have he balls to nerf ECM though..
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#189 - 2017-06-12 10:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
JC Mieyli wrote:
if you think comparing ships in the meta is like comparing apples and oranges it shows how clueless you are
if you think one meta doesnt affect another
and the only way you can make a point is by going on about the garbage fleet doctrines
for fights that dont happen anymore
and are boring as hell
countering my point that ccp only cares about garbage fleet doctrine by using fleet doctrine as an argument sigh

also id like to see what you think im fabulously wrong about



Congratulations, you've ticked all the boxes on the 'I'm just opinionated with no experience to back me up' bingo board. I would suggest opening Zkill and taking a look at anything, really. Also.... isn't the current rage of rorquals and ratting carriers exactly opposite of fleet PVP doctrines? And the launching of the Reprocessing facilities soon *TM and Hyasyoda/Thukker service modules? And even the BR Sotiyo? Negating your claim that CCP only cares about fleet doctrines?


Another also... yeah, only an idiot would say that meta's don't affect each other, but it also takes someone nearly as gifted to suggest that comparing broken meta's to broken meta's, then using those comparisons to make overarching generalizations about balances within a single meta gives a usable outcome. If you go back and re-read just a bit... you'll see the thread is about battleships to battleships.... not battleships to everything else, broken or not.


No doubt there are issues that battleships as a class need resolved, but they are not, as you have put it, not used because they are all bad and fights don't happen anymore. Within the past 2-3 days, a couple(at least) mid sized fights have taken place using machs and maelstroms.... Eve doesn't balance ships so that a single bad in a battleship can YOLO around and kill all the bads cause he's Uber, Eve balances ships to have strengths and weaknesses, and more importantly, limits. Yes, we're in a slower period right now, but if war breaks out tomorrow you can bet machs, maelstroms, and torphoons will be back in style. One of battleships largest problems should be resolved if CCP properly nerfs T3's back into place.. But this thread is not about how battleships compare to broken things like T3's or ECM(which isn't just broken for battleships, it will equally break anything if you are silly enough to get caught on your own with ECM on the field)... it's about how Pirate BS are out of balance with all other BS, making all other BS not really even a thing worth bothering with, with a few notable exceptions. If you'd like to discuss the matter at hand... please do. If you're just gonna complain about how slighted you feel that you'll have to pay what a machariel is actually supposed to be worth and how unfair it is that it doesn't WTFPWN everything.... go to reddit.


Do I expect you to take in anything being said? No, your fingers are in your ears and you're screaming 'I'm right you're wrong!' at the top of your lungs. Instead I'd just ask you to sit quietly. We get it, you're mad you will have to pay what a Pirate BS should actually be worth. If that's too much to ask, then contract me your stuff brah.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

CowQueen MMXII
#190 - 2017-06-12 11:10:18 UTC
Alexander Draegar wrote:

The reason that large alliances are able to easily get a hold of these things is because they are just that: large alliances with lots of players, who are able to simply warp in, destroy everything in a single pass, collect every scrap of good loot, then warp to the next similar site. ?


What now?
Sites are done by individual players and the escalations which result from that and may drop the BPCs as well. The wealth/power/whatever of an alliance has nothing to do with it beyond the fact that the are providing the relatively safe space to do so.

Alexander Draegar wrote:

For individual players though, it's a much different story. We have to work our tails off to get a single copy of a pirate battleship print, and even then it's sometimes too expensive to build for us, and/or we don't have the skills or materials to make use of our hard-won prizes.


You do realize that building a Pirate BS from a BPC requires almost no skills (industry 1) and only standard minerals? The build cost is currently also similar to standard tech 1 BS.


Moo! Uddersucker, moo!

JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2017-06-12 11:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
Kenrailae wrote:
One of battleships largest problems should be resolved if CCP properly nerfs T3's back into place

derp
hypocrite really funny
considering i havent even compared t3cs to bses
and yet here you are doing it yourself

Quote:
it's about how Pirate BS are out of balance with all other BS, making all other BS not really even a thing worth bothering with, with a few notable exceptions

derp
thats exactly what i saidf

Quote:
If you'd like to discuss the matter at hand... please do. If you're just gonna complain about how slighted you feel that you'll have to pay what a machariel is actually supposed to be worth and how unfair it is that it doesn't WTFPWN everything.... go to reddit.

derp
never said that

Quote:
Do I expect you to take in anything being said? No, your fingers are in your ears and you're screaming 'I'm right you're wrong!' at the top of your lungs. Instead I'd just ask you to sit quietly. We get it, you're mad you will have to pay what a Pirate BS should actually be worth. If that's too much to ask, then contract me your stuff brah.

derp
hypocrite

yup thanks for wasting my time by contradicting your own arguments
using my own points against me and then making stuff up that i never even said

all this because youre jealous im a younger player than you and you feel the need to assert your superiority as an older player
except everything you just said is garbage (okay il;l give you maelstrom is somewhat decent along with hype wow 1 bs wd)
and you just come off as a condescending jerk
bye
O2 jayjay
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2017-06-12 12:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: O2 jayjay
tasman devil wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
something something...
Obviously the price isn't the only balance concern about a ship group as prominent and diverse as pirate battleships, and other factors such as the strength of Upwell structure energy neutralization weapons contribute to the dominance of the Machariel in particular. However after giving this situation some thought internally and engaging in plenty of community discussion through venues such as Fanfest and the CSM, we agree that price should be the target of the first set of changes.

whatever whatever


If you have problem with Machs then why not address that in the first place?!? Like Finally getting to the point of Projectile weapons actually needing capacitor to fire?!?!



(while you are at it, the same could be said for the missile launchers too)


I don't need "capacitor" to shoot my M16.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#193 - 2017-06-12 13:35:50 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:

all this because youre jealous im a younger player than you and you feel the need to assert your superiority as an older player
except everything you just said is garbage (okay il;l give you maelstrom is somewhat decent along with hype wow 1 bs wd)
and you just come off as a condescending jerk
bye




I don't need to assert anything. Your back and forth all over the spectrum ruins whatever credence you may have had. You go from 'No one uses battleships, lel, clueless, garbage fleet doctrines, lel, ccp only cares about pvp' to 'oh crap I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about' to 'but all the metas affect each other so problems BS face as a whole must be pinned on the changes being made within the battleships themselves' to 'noo no no no no, what what I actually said is hat battleships aren't worth using because machariel, not because other metas' to 'Oh I better stick my fingers in my ears and yell, and lel and bad trolling even harder, while picking single line responses to my earlier posts out and hanging on them like a lifeline cause I don't have anything else to say.'



Being an older player doesn't make anyone anything. Some of the worst players I've met in this game were older players who knew everything about everything. There is a great deal about this game I don't know much of anything about. You should see my first carrier loss. Comical. I didn't know. Rorqual mining and carrier ratting for another. But, f you're going to call my perspective garbage, then back it up with actual substance. Or sit quietly and derp to yourself in your corner. As it stands, you've not provided a single statement that lends any credence to you being anything other than a really really really really bad at trying to troll. But please, go on, tell me I'm jealous, if you feel the need to stroke yourself. It's fine. I've been called far worse. Frankly I'm having more fun than anything else at this point. Starting to wonder if you're not actually Reaver Glitterstem, though in his defense, he would write pages and pages of response.... even if it was all way out there.



Quote:
disgree none of the other bses are worth using except maybe hype
buffing pirate bs prices doesnt suddenly make other bses worth using



Translation: The other BS aren't worth using, and changing the Pirate prices doesn't change that.


Actuality: It does. Explained a few posts ago. Fabulously wrong, you are..





The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2017-06-12 14:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
wow you are just making stuff up to make yourself feel better
literally putting words in my mouth
if you paid attention to any of my posts you would see my points have been
1. complaints about how mineral changes will benefit veteran players and
2. buffing all bses to have pirate power levels to make them all viable with faction hulls having superior fittings or more specialised role in the case of pirate bs

these have been my 2 points throughout the entire thread
everything else you have said is stuff youve made up yourself
just because you came at me weilding a hammer
now realise how dumb you look by lying about stuff ive said
and stubbornly keep arguing instead of just saying
sorry i overreacted
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#195 - 2017-06-12 20:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
JC Mieyli wrote:
wow you are just making stuff up to make yourself feel better
literally putting words in my mouth
if you paid attention to any of my posts you would see my points have been
1. complaints about how mineral changes will benefit veteran players and
2. buffing all bses to have pirate power levels to make them all viable with faction hulls having superior fittings or more specialised role in the case of pirate bs

these have been my 2 points throughout the entire thread
everything else you have said is stuff youve made up yourself
just because you came at me weilding a hammer
now realise how dumb you look by lying about stuff ive said
and stubbornly keep arguing instead of just saying
sorry i overreacted



Kinda hard to get any substance out of any of your posts when they are all literally badposting. Now that you've actually provided something concrete:

1) Get over it or unsub. Of course making them more expensive will make them more exclusive. That is literally the problem that needs fixing, that they are too numerous and easy to get. More exclusive and a harder goal to attain is what they are designed to be, not a hot rod in everyone's garage.

2) Can you say 'Let's just power creep all the things!'? Cause that's what buffing everything is called. Pirate and Faction ships/mods are supposed to objectively be better than T1.


Go ahead and keep accusing me of making stuff up. Your stance is objectively wrong on a fundamental level, based on your opinion, not game design or a working knowledge of about how things are intended to be balanced. I do accept your apology for overreacting though.


HINT: ^ that last bit there was taking what you've said and making stuff up. Everything else has been responding directly to what you've said and the only intelligible implication I can get out of it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2017-06-12 20:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
dude just give up already
im not talking about exclusivity
im talking about veteran players taking advantage of incresed material costs to hog the market
and how is it power creep when the ships only reach the same levels of power as currently exisitng ships
(even though i already said the same relationship between t1 and faction should be maintained ie better fittings and base stats)
and i never apologised
you already know that though
youre just trying to get a final dig in because you know youre wrong about everything you said about me
and every assumption you made about me
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#197 - 2017-06-12 23:01:11 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
dude just give up already
im not talking about exclusivity
im talking about veteran players taking advantage of incresed material costs to hog the market
and how is it power creep when the ships only reach the same levels of power as currently exisitng ships
(even though i already said the same relationship between t1 and faction should be maintained ie better fittings and base stats)
and i never apologised
you already know that though
youre just trying to get a final dig in because you know youre wrong about everything you said about me
and every assumption you made about me



You should inject reading comprehension 1.


Quote:
I do accept your apology for overreacting though.


HINT: ^ that last bit there was taking what you've said and making stuff up.


That bit there? Yeah. Good game though. Was fun while it lasted. You said 'ok bye' 3 posts ago, but you're still going. When are you going to deliver on that? Or are you still trying to prove you're not completely ignorant?

Concrete proof you are:

Quote:
2. buffing all bses to have pirate power levels to make them all viable with faction hulls having superior fittings or more specialised role in the case of pirate bs


Quote:
(even though i already said the same relationship between t1 and faction should be maintained ie better fittings and base stats)



Quote:
and how is it power creep when the ships only reach the same levels of power as currently exisitng ships


Because you're suggestion to just make them the same power levels as pirate BS, but then make the faction and pirate ones better, doesn't work like that. One is going to be better than the other. You either keep their power levels relative to where they are and rebalance within that, which is what this change is doing... or you make them all stronger, which is what you're suggesting. PS: Making T1's pirate level strength then distinguishing the faction and pirate with extra stuff is increasing all their power level.

Also hint: Of course veteran players are going to have an easier time. As it should be. Every single game in existence, veteran players have an advantage, be it in experience, equipment, skills, whatever. Having goals to work for and things that require time, isk and experience is a good thing for a game. Get over it. You don't get to walk in and on day one fly a VNI, on day two, fly a Vindicator, and on day 3 be in a super carrier, unless you're going to inject some serious skills, which you could do. But a veteran player will still have an advantage in experience, resources, and contacts. Duh?


So about that 'Ok, bye' comment you made a few posts back?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Alexander Draegar
ChemiKals
Goonswarm Federation
#198 - 2017-06-12 23:22:02 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Alexander Draegar wrote:
So, what'll happen in situations where individual players cannot obtain a BPC at a reasonable cost in terms of ISK or effort?

The reason that large alliances are able to easily get a hold of these things is because they are just that: large alliances with lots of players, who are able to simply warp in, destroy everything in a single pass, collect every scrap of good loot, then warp to the next similar site. This is much the reason why BPC costs are as low as they are. Wealth tends to beget more wealth, and these guys have a LOT of resources (players, ships, and ISK) to work with from the start.

For individual players though, it's a much different story. We have to work our tails off to get a single copy of a pirate battleship print, and even then it's sometimes too expensive to build for us, and/or we don't have the skills or materials to make use of our hard-won prizes. Even then, when we're all done we've got ONE pirate battleship that we've put together ourselves. Or, we've got ONE that we've worked hard earning enough ISK to buy on our own.

What'll happen with both groups (and those in between) during an economic re-balance of these hulls and their cost to drop & build?



1.) are you not in F-Con? is that not a null group like your talking about there?

2.) If people want a level playing field( I am sure they do not) then they should agree to push towards regulating all Faction prints of this nature to the Loyalty Point stores and stop having them as drops.


1. Yes, I'm in FCON. However, I'm still expected to make enough ISK to get my stuff myself. I don't mine (because it's far from my favorite activity), I can't really build all that much stuff. So, I go and shoot at rats myself, to buy myself the stuff I use to work with my alliance to defend the territory we use to make our money on our own time.

2. Confining prints to loyalty point stores makes the market slide towards the FW side of the house, where the most loyalty points tend to be earned.

"To kick ass harder, swing foot faster. To kick more ass, keep swinging foot!"

~Alexander Draegar

Schelyra
Weltenbrand Inc.
#199 - 2017-06-13 02:43:23 UTC
Timm3h wrote:
When you drop upcoming changes as a rapid response to csm leaks and pray the over-reaction from the market is enough to hide the leak and prevent further destabilization of csm reputation
Cool

Attention
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2017-06-13 04:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
Kenrailae wrote:
Because you're suggestion to just make them the same power levels as pirate BS, but then make the faction and pirate ones better, doesn't work like that

no it isnt again making up lies and putting words in my mouth
make t1 on the same power level as pirate is what i said
faction keeps their advantage with fittings and and base stats
never mentioned a buff to pirate or faction
except maybe warp speed like mach which is hardly a game breaking buff (and something people have suggested since the warp speeds were first nerfed and people said that nerf was too much and i agree)

Quote:
PS: Making T1's pirate level strength then distinguishing the faction and pirate with extra stuff is increasing all their power level.

oh noes not the security status the whole game is broken because a dude podded without going -0.1 on security

Quote:
Of course veteran players are going to have an easier time. As it should be. Every single game in existence, veteran players have an advantage, be it in experience, equipment, skills, whatever. Having goals to work for and things that require time, isk and experience is a good thing for a game.

a broken economy is good for a game lmao
literally what you just said

Quote:
Get over it. You don't get to walk in and on day one fly a VNI, on day two, fly a Vindicator, and on day 3 be in a super carrier,

uhhh yes you do i dont know what game youre playing
this is eve online im a 3 month old character with 20m sp

Quote:
unless you're going to inject some serious skills, which you could do. But a veteran player will still have an advantage in experience, resources, and contacts. Duh?

so you say but i cant say i see it judging by your posts

god you are so mad to try and win an argument its like i said earlier
you just see me as a noob and you as a vet and you are determined to try and make me look bad
all youre doing is making yourself look bad
well im sorry i dont care if you feel humiliated and ashamed
im sick of you wasting my time with this garbage now