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Get Rid of Faction Frigs/Cruisers from FW Plex's

First post
Author
Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#1 - 2017-06-03 16:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Desmios Sanguis
Faction Warfare is supposed to be the great stepping stone of PvP.

There's novice gates that allow frigs and faction frigs.

Small gates that allow frigs, faction frigs, and destroyers. (no t3)

And medium gates that allow frigs, faction frigs, destroyers, cruisers, and faction cruisers. (no t3)

This works great. Alphas and new players can afford the 1mil destroyer/frig hulls and 7mil cruiser hulls with great insurance.

Hell, I can even kill it alpha with this build (no factions, of course -- it can hold its own verses tech 2 guns though):

[Cormorant, PvE Corm]
Damage Control I
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster

150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I

Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Tungsten Charge S x1000
Lead Charge S x3000
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S x1280
Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S x600
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1

The problem that comes in is this:
Faction Ships totally wreck their non-faction counter-parts.
Faction ships are substantially more expensive (hull), 12 - 38 times more expensive

Alphas and players new to PvP do not want to sink in tens of millions of isk+ in their first few PvP experiences just to be competitive; and they shouldn't have to.

Faction warfare was not designed in a 'seal club' mentality, that is why the gates are strictly structured like that.

Allowing faction hulls completely defeats the purpose; and insurance won't cover a large fraction of them like it will for T1 hulls.

I've been playing for 10 years and ISK is no issue for me, I could seal club if I wanted, but I want to improve the game.

I've got friends that just picked up the game and FW is the best way to introduce them to solo/small gang PvP -- and love them as I do, I don't want to have to pay for all their adventures because they can't afford the necessary faction fit.

Without faction frigs allowed in NOVICE, you wont have an 60mil hull garmur taking on a merlin or coercer. It is just stupid. A garmur can easily solo a thorax or a vexor.

TL;DR Get rid of faction hulls for FW; especially the Garmur (it just wrecks) [60mil hull cost]

Devils Advoce: Please name 1 good reason why Faction Hulls should be allowed in a linear-learning PLEX'd system like faction warfare for PvP. (because I want one does not count)

This is an EASY fix for CCP to make and would GREATLY improve the game. The amount of newer PvP players and alpha that would funnel into FW would give it new life.

Thank you for reading,

Desmios
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#2 - 2017-06-03 17:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: StonerPhReaK
Remove Faction from Faction warfare.... Could it even be called Faction warfare after that? Maybe rename it to t1 warfare and restrict t2 modules too.

Edit: You seem to be using faction ammo, Which is a no-no according to you. You cant deny others cake and eat it all yourself.....

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2017-06-03 17:41:38 UTC
1 good reason. Here you go.
Because faction warfare is a good stepping stone in pvp. And faction ships are a reality of pvp at any scale. Yes they cost more, but they offer considerable advantages.
Same could be said of tech 2 weapons and ships. Should those be locked out as well? Why don't we just restrict novice plex to rookie ships with civilian mods?
Why should faction ships be the arbitrary cutoff?
Netan MalDoran
Sinister Intent
#4 - 2017-06-03 17:46:24 UTC
Noooo,
I like my Faction Comet with the police skin!
***-*** militia here to ruin your day!

And the navy comet is a good entry faction ship, powerful but not too expensive.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

Goe Rilla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-06-03 18:47:05 UTC
Perhaps instead of acting all elitist..

We could maybe "look" into the idea of implementing a rookie and more noobfriendly side to FW pvp?

Not necessarly by means of new gates, but I dont know, be open at least ?


April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2017-06-03 20:09:22 UTC
Goe Rilla wrote:
Perhaps instead of acting all elitist..

We could maybe "look" into the idea of implementing a rookie and more noobfriendly side to FW pvp?

Not necessarly by means of new gates, but I dont know, be open at least ?



Welll.... I'm not in FW but looking at what i know FW is already very "rookie and noobfriendly":
- gated complexes
- easy and some time almost AFK money
- zero entry level, ISK-wise and SP-wise
- some protection in high-sec (not CONCORD but still!)
- safety of assets since citadels
- i forgot something?
Don Pera Saissore
#7 - 2017-06-03 20:38:53 UTC
The best thing about fw plexes is you can choose whether you wanna fight or run
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#8 - 2017-06-03 21:24:00 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Faction Warfare is supposed to be the great stepping stone of PvP.

There's novice gates that allow frigs and faction frigs.

Small gates that allow frigs, faction frigs, and destroyers. (no t3)

And medium gates that allow frigs, faction frigs, destroyers, cruisers, and faction cruisers. (no t3)

This works great. Alphas and new players can afford the 1mil destroyer/frig hulls and 7mil cruiser hulls with great insurance.

Hell, I can even kill it alpha with this build (no factions, of course -- it can hold its own verses tech 2 guns though):

[Cormorant, PvE Corm]
Damage Control I
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster

150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I
150mm Compressed Coil Gun I

Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Tungsten Charge S x1000
Lead Charge S x3000
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S x1280
Caldari Navy Uranium Charge S x600
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1

The problem that comes in is this:
Faction Ships totally wreck their non-faction counter-parts.
Faction ships are substantially more expensive (hull), 12 - 38 times more expensive

Alphas and players new to PvP do not want to sink in tens of millions of isk+ in their first few PvP experiences just to be competitive; and they shouldn't have to.

Faction warfare was not designed in a 'seal club' mentality, that is why the gates are strictly structured like that.

Allowing faction hulls completely defeats the purpose; and insurance won't cover a large fraction of them like it will for T1 hulls.

I've been playing for 10 years and ISK is no issue for me, I could seal club if I wanted, but I want to improve the game.

I've got friends that just picked up the game and FW is the best way to introduce them to solo/small gang PvP -- and love them as I do, I don't want to have to pay for all their adventures because they can't afford the necessary faction fit.

Without faction frigs allowed in NOVICE, you wont have an 60mil hull garmur taking on a merlin or coercer. It is just stupid. A garmur can easily solo a thorax or a vexor.

TL;DR Get rid of faction hulls for FW; especially the Garmur (it just wrecks) [60mil hull cost]

Devils Advoce: Please name 1 good reason why Faction Hulls should be allowed in a linear-learning PLEX'd system like faction warfare for PvP. (because I want one does not count)

This is an EASY fix for CCP to make and would GREATLY improve the game. The amount of newer PvP players and alpha that would funnel into FW would give it new life.

Thank you for reading,

Desmios


No.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2017-06-03 21:35:09 UTC
get some friends, 50m in t1 frigs kicks the crap out of 50m in pirate frigs. Also navy ships are typically reasonably priced in the 10-15mil range for the hull and are mainly supplied by FW. Seems like it would be silly to restrict one of the main FW rewards from participating in FW. Also if you are in the plex you should be able to see a faction frig coming on dscan and get out before it becomes a threat.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-06-04 00:26:18 UTC
Get some friends and zerg rush that faction frigate with 50-100 rookie ships.

"A flock of Crows can take down an Eagle" -Someone
Roll
Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#11 - 2017-06-04 00:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Desmios Sanguis
You all missed the entirety of the post; except one person.

"Get a faction frig -- then you can kill faction frigs"
Really?

"It cant be called faction warfare without faction ships, and you USE 200k of faction ammo, which is the same as a 16mil faction hull, soooooo... you are a hypocrite"
Yup. They totally named it 'faction warfare' because they intended faction hulls to be fighting each other. It has nothing to do with the 4 main game FACTIONS. And yup, using faction antimatter is basically the same thing as being in a faction hull. X

"get some friends in t1 hulls and **** the factions"

*THE ENTIRE POINT HAS BEEN MISSED*

FW is supposed to be an outlet to do NONE OF THOSE THINGS.

You are SUPPOSED to be able to hope into a T1 hull with meta4/5 fittings and be competitive.
You are SUPPOSED to be solo or just meeting up with whoever shows up as 'in militia' in local.

WHY would you deny new players a great learning opportunity just to say 'git gud'?

We get it! You have hundreds of millions of isk to buy faction navy comets to lose 3 to 4 times a day without a dent in your wallet. Awesome!

YOU AREN'T WHO FACTION WARFARE IS MADE FOR.

Faction warfare is made for new players who want to learn PvP and "getting wrecked by more expensive ships is like real PvP" MAKES NO SENSE.

How are you supposed to learn any PvP skills when you are getting facemelted and constantly demoralized?

WE GET IT, YOU ARE MAD L33T, NOOBS need to GIT GUD or GO HOME.

This isn't ABOUT YOU.

It is about the longevity of the game and having a GREAT mechanic for new players to learn PVP with little risk.
Orlacc
#12 - 2017-06-04 01:37:17 UTC
OP wants all to be Alpha

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#13 - 2017-06-04 01:44:43 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
OP wants all to be Alpha


OP has been playing 10 years and wants what is best for the game so it is still around in another 10.

Not sure why you say OP wants all to be alpha.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2017-06-04 01:46:44 UTC
They can learn pvp risking as much or as little as they want.
Fact is that REAL pvp isn't honorable 1v1 at the sun in perfectly matched ships. That is the exception rather than the rule. Which has always been that if you find yourself in a fair fight then someone has screwed up.
Can't outgun them then outnumber them. Get some friends and roam as a group. That faction frig is gonna look a lot better on your KB than your t1 will on theirs.
Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#15 - 2017-06-04 01:49:54 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
They can learn pvp risking as much or as little as they want.
Fact is that REAL pvp isn't honorable 1v1 at the sun in perfectly matched ships. That is the exception rather than the rule. Which has always been that if you find yourself in a fair fight then someone has screwed up.
Can't outgun them then outnumber them. Get some friends and roam as a group. That faction frig is gonna look a lot better on your KB than your t1 will on theirs.


FW isn't REAL PvP. It is very tightly controlled and is supposed to be a stepping stone.

Do swordfighters practice with real swords because "that is how it actually is" or do they practice with wooden swords when they first start out?

They practice first with wooden swords.

Your whole idea that faction warfare is supposed to curb stomp new players into learning something is foolish.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-06-04 02:51:54 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
They can learn pvp risking as much or as little as they want.
Fact is that REAL pvp isn't honorable 1v1 at the sun in perfectly matched ships. That is the exception rather than the rule. Which has always been that if you find yourself in a fair fight then someone has screwed up.
Can't outgun them then outnumber them. Get some friends and roam as a group. That faction frig is gonna look a lot better on your KB than your t1 will on theirs.


FW isn't REAL PvP. It is very tightly controlled and is supposed to be a stepping stone.

Do swordfighters practice with real swords because "that is how it actually is" or do they practice with wooden swords when they first start out?

They practice first with wooden swords.

Your whole idea that faction warfare is supposed to curb stomp new players into learning something is foolish.


Yes FW has restrictions already. Plex sizes, limits on t3s etc. Yes faction ships give people an advantage. But so do t2 guns. And meta mods. So where does the line get drawn?
Orlacc
#17 - 2017-06-04 02:53:48 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
OP wants all to be Alpha


OP has been playing 10 years and wants what is best for the game so it is still around in another 10.

Not sure why you say OP wants all to be alpha.



Cuz I have seen your posts elsewhere whining about Alpha restrictions

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#18 - 2017-06-04 02:58:52 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
OP wants all to be Alpha


OP has been playing 10 years and wants what is best for the game so it is still around in another 10.

Not sure why you say OP wants all to be alpha.



Cuz I have seen your posts elsewhere whining about Alpha restrictions


please link me one
Desmios Sanguis
Tax-Free Foundation
#19 - 2017-06-04 02:59:59 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
They can learn pvp risking as much or as little as they want.
Fact is that REAL pvp isn't honorable 1v1 at the sun in perfectly matched ships. That is the exception rather than the rule. Which has always been that if you find yourself in a fair fight then someone has screwed up.
Can't outgun them then outnumber them. Get some friends and roam as a group. That faction frig is gonna look a lot better on your KB than your t1 will on theirs.


FW isn't REAL PvP. It is very tightly controlled and is supposed to be a stepping stone.

Do swordfighters practice with real swords because "that is how it actually is" or do they practice with wooden swords when they first start out?

They practice first with wooden swords.

Your whole idea that faction warfare is supposed to curb stomp new players into learning something is foolish.


Yes FW has restrictions already. Plex sizes, limits on t3s etc. Yes faction ships give people an advantage. But so do t2 guns. And meta mods. So where does the line get drawn?


Faction hulls.

I thought I made that pretty clear in the GET RID OF FACTION HULLS title
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2017-06-04 03:10:39 UTC
But why stop there? Why prohibit those but not t2 ships?
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