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Help to choose new ship for agent missions
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Rexxar Santaro
Forex Corp
#21 - 2017-06-01 18:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rexxar Santaro
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
You know in some level III missions and in almost all level IV missions you’ll land into DED space surrounded by a horde of S, M and L ships. They will apply on your ship one or more Webifiers which will web your vessel in a place (forget about kitting or so) and you just have to kill everything around, and disruptor jammer frigates in the first row.


Fit an MJD and you can forget to fit tanking modules.


Entro just looking for any good PVE ships to climb up through missions to lvl IV, based on his low combat skills and limited budget. Before level IV missions everyone must complete a huge amount of level III missions even with Connection III skills trained.

The MJD tools are available for special T2 BC (Command Ships and Combat Battlecruisers – over 70 days of skill training) and BS. We just should tank on BCs. Well, I did over 150 of lvl III missions on passive tanked Hurricane which was not so fun; just noticed that a booster is much better option on lack of DPS. With high DPS, currently, the passive tank BC looks better.

The distance MJD tanking BS exists as other tanking mechanics exists. As for me, it’s a limited “fan fit” mode to perform missions. It’s limited because requires nice ship skills and special ships. If I’m not wrong the MJD tanking is used by Cruise Missile Battleships like Raven and Rattlesnake mainly. I looked at this previously and I was unable to use this tanking mode on a turret armed BS.

The issues of MJD tanking. The Large MJD consumes 1375 MW which is like MWD power usage. The distant tanking is designed to dps rats from distance above 80km. You need to use, for example, like 7-8 3.3GW power grid Beam lasers or 2.7GW Scout Artillery which is roughly 21 – 25 GW (Sure, with special skills we can downgrade this!), considering the best default power grid for BS is 21GW. Even in this case you’ll need some resistance and little tanking, because Guristas, Angel, Mordus will reach your ship with missiles. Some missions have advanced BS with long range weapons. Anyway, I had problems to fit such a balanced BS. Secondly, the turret/beam dps isn’t absolute and it decreases with falloff at max/min range. Practically, with low skills and avg 400dps you need to be in optimal range with drones on target to overcome some rats BS tanking mode. To fit a MJD on Machariel IDK. Opposite to this the Raven with default 11GW can easily handle 6 Cruise Missile Launchers 1.4GW = 8.4GW. No need to sacrifice dps and tanking modules on power upgrades and with good explosion signature and painter isn’t a similar falloff effect from above 90km. The railguns also allow to build some experimental BS distant tanks.

EDIT: My current Maelstrom with 25.2GW let me use MJD, but I learned many weapon and engineering skills already. Also, I don't have good dps to destroy enemy BS from above 70km. My targeting radius is 82km :).

If you know a good MJD tanking amarrian BS let me know.
Wombat65Au Egdald
R I S E
#22 - 2017-06-02 05:13:41 UTC
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
If you know a good MJD tanking amarrian BS let me know.


I'm not sure if you would call this "good", but here's a MJD Armageddon fit I just put together in the in-game fitting simulator.

[Armageddon, *Simulated Armageddon]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Large Armor Repairer II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Sensor Booster II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Large Micro Jump Drive
100MN Afterburner II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Federation Navy Hammerhead x5
Federation Navy Ogre x5
Republic Fleet Bouncer x5

Tracking Speed Script x1
Inferno Cruise Missile x115

With my skills this fit has 3:45 of sustained cap with the repper and AB running, and there was less than 10 DPS difference if I swap the BCS for a third Drone Damage Amp, so I decided to give the missiles a little more oomph. The Bouncer Sentries can snipe out to 110 km, but without a SeBo range script this fit can't lock targets more than 105 km away, so the fit doesn't get the most out of the cruise missile range. The processor rig is there because the fit has a CPU problem but plenty of spare powergrid.

I chose faction drones because they have almost the same dps as T2 drones but have more tank and don't need as much training time to use. The faction drones are more expensive than T2 versions of the same drones. The drone bay still has 75 m3 of spare space for more drones.

I'm not saying this is a "perfect" way to fit a MJD Amarr BS, but I do think it's not unreasonable. :)
Redus Taw
Farmers Union Iced Coffee
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2017-06-02 06:22:24 UTC
Entro wrote:
Redus Taw wrote:
I'm assuming you're talking about security missions. I like to fly...

L1: Cormorant (blasters)
L2: Moa (blasters, although I feel like rails or a caracal would be more efficient so see what other people say about level 2's)
L3: Drake (heavy launchers)
L4: Raven (cruise launchers)

While I make isk I do not see the sense in an initial investment that'll take days, weeks, months to make back so these ships are not optimal, but they do pretty well. If you want optimal then fly what's above until you get to level 4's (because you're not making that much extra isk optimizing level 1's, 2's, 3's). Once you get there you can get implants and/or fly a machariel or rattlesnake. I haven't done this, but the rattlesnake is definitely better and afaik the machariel is the best for "blitzing". You can also find a location that has multiple agents nearby so in case one has a mission that loses you standings you can go to another agent where you won't lose standings.


Thank you! So, if I got it right, you use different agents to compensate the loss of standing to keep it balanced?


So when you request a mission from one agent, that mission may hurt your standings with Caldari for example. Instead of losing that standing, skip that mission. You can skip a mission once every 4 hours with the same agent without losing standings with that agent so if the next mission requires you to hurt your standings with Minmatar go find another agent/mission close by where you won't lose standings with Gallente, Amarr, Caldari, or Minmatar. The pirate faction standings don't matter as far as I know, but if you get low enough standings with Gallente, Amarr, Caldari, or Minmatar the police will try to kill you if you go into their space.
Wombat65Au Egdald
R I S E
#24 - 2017-06-02 07:04:54 UTC
Amarr and Caldari are allies against Minmatar and Gallente. As your standings improve with Amarr, they also improve with Caldari by a smaller amount. At the same time, your standings will drop with Minmatar and drop by a smaller amount with Gallente.

It is possible to unlock level 4 missions with NPC corps in all of the main empires at the same time. My character is Minmatar but I have level 4 missions unlocked with multiple NPC corps in all the main empires. I can go anywhere I want in any of the main empiires and not need to worry about being attacked by any NPC empire militias. I only need to look out for other players who might want to explode my ship.

My standings are not exactly equal with every empire, I have higher standings with Minmatar and Gallente, but my standings with Amarr and Caldari are good enough that I can travel through their space and talk to their agents without any problems.

To avoid losing standings with one empire too much I tend to not take lots of missions from the same NPC corp in a row, I'll do some missions for one corp, then do some missions for a different corp. Also the type of storyline missions you get depends on the type of missions you did just before you are offered the storyline mission. I usually do about 12 or so security missions, then do some distribution missions until the storyline mission is offered to me. it will be a distribution mission, because I was running distribution missions just before the storyline mission was offered. After I complete the storyline mission, I go back to doing more security missions. I do need to keep track of my missions myself, there is no in-game tool that I can use to warn me when I am getting close to being offered another storyline mission.

I keep several ships for this, since most ships that are good in L3 or L4 security missions don't have enough cargo space to carry the amount of cargo a L3 or L4 distribution mission asks you to move. When I stop running security missions I'll swap over from a combat ship to a cargo ship, then swap ships again when I want to do more security missions. You could just use the same ship to do both for L1 and L2 missions since the amount of cargo is not large in lower level distribution missions. You could also use the same method to swap between security and mining missions, swapping between a combat ship and a mining ship, but I've never run any higher level mining missions so I don't know how much ore you need to collect for those.
JuuR Zibaoo
Akimamur Industries
Incorporeal Conglomerate Society
#25 - 2017-06-02 07:11:04 UTC
i would go in a drone boat .. vexor, vexor navy, ishtar or bigger with a dominix or domi navy

its easy, cheap (vexor, vexor navy and dominix) and no wast of ammo
start with a vexor for low isk .. then in lvl2 vexor navy .. then go to the ishtar for most lvl4 its a good ship if you have good drone skills .. and if you want to go really lazy and make really easy money in lvl use the domi or better the domi navy issue with a micro jump drive .. warden II drones .. all good and easy ..

have fun ..
Rexxar Santaro
Forex Corp
#26 - 2017-06-05 07:06:22 UTC
JuuR Zibaoo wrote:
i would go in a drone boat .. vexor, vexor navy, ishtar or bigger with a dominix or domi navy

its easy, cheap (vexor, vexor navy and dominix) and no wast of ammo
start with a vexor for low isk .. then in lvl2 vexor navy .. then go to the ishtar for most lvl4 its a good ship if you have good drone skills .. and if you want to go really lazy and make really easy money in lvl use the domi or better the domi navy issue with a micro jump drive .. warden II drones .. all good and easy ..

have fun ..


The Ishtar is a hippie style Gallente lazy ship and which is strongest among them at the same time. You should been point to the laziest Ishtar mode – that one with autotarget missiles. Possible this ship will get addition nerf soon. For somebody the Ishtar is boring; we require more action. Anyway, it’s easier to learn all available T1 BS to lvl 3, and some to level IV, than to unlock lvl I Ishtar (I need over 45 days, considering my decent ship skills).

The faster mode to a big PVE game with low skills is to use faction pirate ships, which are the most expensive among them.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#27 - 2017-06-05 07:31:47 UTC
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
You know in some level III missions and in almost all level IV missions you’ll land into DED space surrounded by a horde of S, M and L ships. They will apply on your ship one or more Webifiers which will web your vessel in a place (forget about kitting or so) and you just have to kill everything around, and disruptor jammer frigates in the first row.


Fit an MJD and you can forget to fit tanking modules.


Entro just looking for any good PVE ships to climb up through missions to lvl IV, based on his low combat skills and limited budget. Before level IV missions everyone must complete a huge amount of level III missions even with Connection III skills trained.

The MJD tools are available for special T2 BC (Command Ships and Combat Battlecruisers – over 70 days of skill training) and BS. We just should tank on BCs. Well, I did over 150 of lvl III missions on passive tanked Hurricane which was not so fun; just noticed that a booster is much better option on lack of DPS. With high DPS, currently, the passive tank BC looks better.

The distance MJD tanking BS exists as other tanking mechanics exists. As for me, it’s a limited “fan fit” mode to perform missions. It’s limited because requires nice ship skills and special ships. If I’m not wrong the MJD tanking is used by Cruise Missile Battleships like Raven and Rattlesnake mainly. I looked at this previously and I was unable to use this tanking mode on a turret armed BS.

The issues of MJD tanking. The Large MJD consumes 1375 MW which is like MWD power usage. The distant tanking is designed to dps rats from distance above 80km. You need to use, for example, like 7-8 3.3GW power grid Beam lasers or 2.7GW Scout Artillery which is roughly 21 – 25 GW (Sure, with special skills we can downgrade this!), considering the best default power grid for BS is 21GW. Even in this case you’ll need some resistance and little tanking, because Guristas, Angel, Mordus will reach your ship with missiles. Some missions have advanced BS with long range weapons. Anyway, I had problems to fit such a balanced BS. Secondly, the turret/beam dps isn’t absolute and it decreases with falloff at max/min range. Practically, with low skills and avg 400dps you need to be in optimal range with drones on target to overcome some rats BS tanking mode. To fit a MJD on Machariel IDK. Opposite to this the Raven with default 11GW can easily handle 6 Cruise Missile Launchers 1.4GW = 8.4GW. No need to sacrifice dps and tanking modules on power upgrades and with good explosion signature and painter isn’t a similar falloff effect from above 90km. The railguns also allow to build some experimental BS distant tanks.

EDIT: My current Maelstrom with 25.2GW let me use MJD, but I learned many weapon and engineering skills already. Also, I don't have good dps to destroy enemy BS from above 70km. My targeting radius is 82km :).

If you know a good MJD tanking amarrian BS let me know.


1. T1 combat battlecruisers can also fit an MJD. I have an MJD myrmiddon and it works pretty well.
2. Were you talking about Amarr battleships? I thought you were talking about general situation. My MJD dominix only has a DCU II, a large armor rep II and a exp-res rig as tanking modules, and it works pretty well. Actually in most missions, if I relocate myself every 3 minutes, I don't even have to activate that armor rep at all. (but of course for efficiency I don't really do so.)
Rexxar Santaro
Forex Corp
#28 - 2017-06-05 07:35:24 UTC
Wombat65Au Egdald wrote:
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
If you know a good MJD tanking amarrian BS let me know.


[Armageddon, *Simulated Armageddon]
...


When I’ll have few addition extra billions I’ll try different amarrian experimental BS fits. The calculators and ship simulators are very useful, but they show us only marginal theoretical values. In real situations, the performance will vary significantly. The problem is to balance max real possible dps/ehp with available skills and ship restriction on cap, slots, power and cpu.

I don’t know what Armageddon is doing in amarrian BS tier, really. Your attempt to put on monks the Gallente’s beach shorts and dark glasses looks interesting.
Rexxar Santaro
Forex Corp
#29 - 2017-06-05 09:37:03 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:

1. T1 combat battlecruisers can also fit an MJD. I have an MJD myrmiddon and it works pretty well.
2. Were you talking about Amarr battleships? I thought you were talking about general situation. My MJD dominix only has a DCU II, a large armor rep II and a exp-res rig as tanking modules, and it works pretty well. Actually in most missions, if I relocate myself every 3 minutes, I don't even have to activate that armor rep at all. (but of course for efficiency I don't really do so.)


I’m sorry for my bad English knowledge. It’s foreign language for me and I can type wrong phrases based on their sense and time modes: present continuous, past perfect and etc.

I talked about Amarr ships, because (post #17) Entro was interested in perspective of amarrian ships on lvl IV missions and why that will be a problem to tank and dps on them.

"Thanks for your help! As an Amarr, should I be choosing the 4. Laser: Punisher,... line? Just to save some training time, as I got amarr frigates at lvl 4 right now. Although the Guristas' line catches my eye too, I've been advised to use those ships too. Again, i'm mixed up :)"

The MJD technology, in my opinion, is for solo PVP and solo PVE of DED 8-10. The Null-Sec DED 8-10 and WH C4-C6 sleeper sites are scary and the MJD tank is preferable there.

Combat Battlecruisers (CBC): Prophecy, Harbinger, Ferox, Drake, Brutix, Myrmidon, Cyclone and Hurricane.

To be good on MJD tanking you just need weeks of skill learning, if I’m not wrong, - T2 BC with low weapon, engineering, ships skills are ok (due to their bonuses) or T1 CBC with high (IV-V) skills on weapons (drones, gunnery, missile), targeting, engineering, navigation. Moreover, as I typed somewhere above, this is a “fan fit” which is easier to implement on special ship like cruise missile and drone vessels (as your is). Anyway, with medium combat skills (III-IV) you don’t need in MJD on lvl 3 missions, you can easy complete them on almost all BC.

The MJD BS tanking can be a headache on lvl IV missions with many DED gates like Angel Extravaganza is (5 gates). You must MJD away, you must MJD back, you must wait its CD before entering to the next DED and again and again. The standard tanking Rattlesnake or Machariel will crash everything around without doing this. The MJD on Machariel is good to use to avoid suiciders in 0.5-0.6 systems. For example, maybe it’s not the best advice, but with a T1 X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload and one T1 Shield Boost Amplifier, supported by two active fields, you can easily speed tank most of lvl 4 missions. Without cap problems, the second Shield Boost Amplifier is ok.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#30 - 2017-06-05 14:14:43 UTC
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
[quote=Alasdan Helminthauge]
Moreover, as I typed somewhere above, this is a “fan fit” which is easier to implement on special ship like cruise missile and drone vessels (as your is). Anyway, with medium combat skills (III-IV) you don’t need in MJD on lvl 3 missions, you can easy complete them on almost all BC.

The MJD BS tanking can be a headache on lvl IV missions with many DED gates like Angel Extravaganza is (5 gates). You must MJD away, you must MJD back, you must wait its CD before entering to the next DED and again and again.


Yeah, these are true, so I generally avoid those missions :P
Wombat65Au Egdald
R I S E
#31 - 2017-06-07 07:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Wombat65Au Egdald
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
Wombat65Au Egdald wrote:
Rexxar Santaro wrote:
If you know a good MJD tanking amarrian BS let me know.


[Armageddon, *Simulated Armageddon]
...


When I’ll have few addition extra billions I’ll try different amarrian experimental BS fits. The calculators and ship simulators are very useful, but they show us only marginal theoretical values. In real situations, the performance will vary significantly. The problem is to balance max real possible dps/ehp with available skills and ship restriction on cap, slots, power and cpu.

I don’t know what Armageddon is doing in amarrian BS tier, really. Your attempt to put on monks the Gallente’s beach shorts and dark glasses looks interesting.


That fit is very much a PVE sniping fit, you don't fit a MJD for a short to medium range brawler fit, that's what MWD's are for, IMO.
So, let's try a Geddon missile fit that's more focused on brawling.

[Armageddon, *Simulated Armageddon]
Damage Control II
Ammatar Navy Medium Armor Repairer
Ammatar Navy Medium Armor Repairer
Ammatar Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Reactive Armor Hardener
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier

F-90 Compact Sensor Booster
Astro-Inertial Compact Missile Guidance Computer
Republic Fleet 500MN Microwarpdrive
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Heavy Energy Nosferatu II

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

Ogre II x5

Inferno Heavy Missile x125
Scan Resolution Script x1
Missile Precision Script x1

I chose a lot of faction modules because of CPU issues with the Geddon, but decided against officer modules to avoid making the fit too stupidly overpriced. I chose some non-faction meta modules in the mids because faction versions wouldn't make a significant difference but would blow out the price. This fit has less than 5 points of CPU spare with my skills. Dropping the faction modules for T2 or T1 meta will lower the price but the fit will need an overclocking rig to have enough CPU. The T2 RHML's may have to be replaced with a T1 meta version for the same reason.

Since this is an attempt at a fit that's more suited to brawling, a MWD instead of a MJD and a Cap Battery instead of an AB. A cap booster is also an option and would free up a little more CPU, at the expense of needing to buy and carry booster charges. One more mid slot and I would have added an AB for a dual prop setup, but with only 4 mid slots, I had to prioritise.

One Drone Link Aug because a brawler doesn't need the same drone control range as a sniper setup. A Nos will work on rat ships AFAIK and with the Geddon's hull bonuses for Neuts and Nos's (and my skills) the Nos has a little more range than the heavy missiles. Slightly under 4 minutes of cap duration with this fit, not factoring in any cap leached from rats with the Nos. The fit doesn't need to lock targets at sniping range so a T1 or meta SeBo and a sensor resolution script for faster target locks.

I dropped the low slot BCS to fit a second EANM to better handle incoming damage. The fitting simulator is showing slightly over 990 dps with my skills for this fit (T1 heavy missiles). Replacing one EANM with a faction BCS increases dps to slightly over 1060.
With Caldari Navy faction missiles the numbers are 1031 dps with no BCS and 1117 with a faction BCS. With T2 Fury missiles, 1092 dps with no BCS and 1189 dps with a faction BCS.

The fitting simulator also indicated 105 hp/sec of armor rep with this fit (with my skills), I also tried two medium faction armor reppers with one EANM and no BCS and the fitting simulator showed the same amount of armor reps with both medium reppers running compared to one large faction repper, and slightly over 4 minutes cap duration with both reppers running. With only one EANM, the tank loses approx. 9000 ehp. I do realise that a dual rep fit does not keep both reppers running all the time, but in this situation I'd personally choose the extra 9000 ehp over conserving the cap. Slightly under 4 minutes of cap duration is still quite good for PVE missioning.

I've only selected one set of heavy drones to see the estimate of the dps in the simulator, and this time I chose T2 heavies because they're cheaper than faction heavies, to try to offset some of the cost of the faction modules.

I'm not saying this is "the best" brawling fit for L4 missioning, but as a thought exercise on setting up an Amarr BS for L4 mission brawling, it might work.
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