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Strategic Cruiser Focus Group Working Thread

First post
Author
Secretariot Eto
Angur Management
#421 - 2017-06-26 23:04:54 UTC
T3Cs are receiving a long awaited nerf. I think we all need to get over that fact and realize they won't have the best damage/tank/ewar/agility combined anymore.

Btw, they still deal a ridiculous amount of damage for cruiser hull.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#422 - 2017-06-27 00:09:01 UTC
They still have a ridiculous amount of damage and tank.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#423 - 2017-06-27 00:39:58 UTC
Secretariot Eto wrote:
T3Cs are receiving a long awaited nerf. I think we all need to get over that fact and realize they won't have the best damage/tank/ewar/agility combined anymore.

Btw, they still deal a ridiculous amount of damage for cruiser hull.



What they're getting is a halfassed rush job that isn't producing the results needed.
Secretariot Eto
Angur Management
#424 - 2017-06-27 03:15:01 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
They still have a ridiculous amount of damage and tank.


Completely agree. I see so many comments about tank isn't good enough, not enough PG/CPU, slot layout not right... etc.

Welcome to fitting every other ship in the game.
Lina Miaoke
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#425 - 2017-06-27 04:13:45 UTC
Whatever you do, please do not take away the mini Avatar look away from Exploring Legion. :(

The current Dissolution Sequencer look fugly, Nos/Neut Legion can have that look for all I care.
Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#426 - 2017-06-27 07:12:43 UTC
Secretariot Eto wrote:
T3Cs are receiving a long awaited nerf. I think we all need to get over that fact and realize they won't have the best damage/tank/ewar/agility combined anymore.

Btw, they still deal a ridiculous amount of damage for cruiser hull.


The nerf is ineffective as it only truly affects those areas for which no alternative exists in other ships. On top of that the changes actually buff DPS from what we see. So it would appear the changes actually result in exactly what was not supposed to happen.

You can build a cloaky monster DPS platform that can sneak up undetected and unleash, but you can't create an explorer which can take the considerable damage in some of the higher end sites while at the same time be able to cloak as a purely defensive action unless you bring two different cloaks and refit in space leaving you vulnerable with a very expensive ship where you will also run the risk of losing SP.

It's a rush job indeed and actually it looks like it was mostly ready to go with the focus group put in place to provide the 'community rubber stamp' to what Fozzie&co thought up..
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#427 - 2017-06-27 09:15:06 UTC
Blazemonger wrote:
Secretariot Eto wrote:
T3Cs are receiving a long awaited nerf. I think we all need to get over that fact and realize they won't have the best damage/tank/ewar/agility combined anymore.

Btw, they still deal a ridiculous amount of damage for cruiser hull.


The nerf is ineffective as it only truly affects those areas for which no alternative exists in other ships. On top of that the changes actually buff DPS from what we see. So it would appear the changes actually result in exactly what was not supposed to happen.

You can build a cloaky monster DPS platform that can sneak up undetected and unleash, but you can't create an explorer which can take the considerable damage in some of the higher end sites while at the same time be able to cloak as a purely defensive action unless you bring two different cloaks and refit in space leaving you vulnerable with a very expensive ship where you will also run the risk of losing SP.

It's a rush job indeed and actually it looks like it was mostly ready to go with the focus group put in place to provide the 'community rubber stamp' to what Fozzie&co thought up..

It's kind of interesting that this "nerf" will result ships that are easier to kill, but also easier to be killed by them. This only makes sense for hunters, as they don't want a real fight, they depend on high dps and alpha damage as I understand.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Ben Ishikela
#428 - 2017-06-27 12:45:00 UTC
I logged in to SISI and installed the SISIpyfa. ghost fitting seemed to be not working 2days ago.
SISIpyfa shows good numbers on the ships.
Seems like covertnullified T3Cs do not need to refit for running complexes which is very nice.

The fastalign&isntawarp Hunter T3C does not work anymore. Which is nice. It was Overpowered and Boring anyway. It was also raising the minimal radius a blue sov donut must have to at least 3 systems.
With those changes, there might be more ratting opportunity for independent guys, a little less need for blues and therefor more fights. Which is nice.

Good Job CCP!


TLDR rip huntertengu we will remember.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Tyrant's Bane
Honor's Lost Cause
#429 - 2017-06-27 20:38:38 UTC
Well, After 4 years I have decided to come back and one of the first things I notice is the discussion on upcoming changes to T3 cruisers. I really like the proposed changes and am looking forward to them. Any idea on when this patch is supposed to launch?
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2017-06-27 22:52:03 UTC
@Focus group, am I reading right that Fozzie has moved the warp speed bonus to the nullification subsystem?

Why was it removed from the non-nullified sub? This removes the ability for a T3 to travel fast.
Lelob
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#431 - 2017-06-28 03:18:28 UTC
6 gun legion still has 200k+ dps with beams with great range with 600 dps with a sig under 200m that perma-runs on cap....this is very, very broken STILL. Please continue nerfing the legion as I have no desire to see years and years more of t3 cruisers being the only ships people fly.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#432 - 2017-06-28 03:55:43 UTC
Tyrant's Bane wrote:
Well, After 4 years I have decided to come back and one of the first things I notice is the discussion on upcoming changes to T3 cruisers. I really like the proposed changes and am looking forward to them. Any idea on when this patch is supposed to launch?



July 12th is the planned release, though if they have any sense they'll work on it longer.
Matsu Fumiko
Doomheim
#433 - 2017-06-28 07:01:02 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:



July 12th is the planned release, though if they have any sense they'll work on it longer.


Just a reminder: we are talking about CCP Blink

Teilnahme ab 18! Glücksspiel kann süchtig machen!

www.spielen-mit-verantwortung.de

Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#434 - 2017-06-28 09:23:58 UTC

Reading the focus group logs there's definitely some changes still being made, good to see some of the more concerning issues being discussed and addressed (from what it seems). Still not entirely happy about the need to refit in space between travel and running sites in NS..

One of the suggestions seen here that I miss in the discussion on the FC is the option to allow T3C to refit without the need for a Mobile depot. There may be technical reasons which prevent this, but it would make things a lot more smooth. I'd understand this would induce a timer where the ship is immobilized due to re-calibration or whatever you want to make the reason. It would however offer some 'protection' when on DScan only the ship is visible and not a MD as well (kind of gives away the refit).


Overall I do feel it is disappointing that offensive application of the T3C seems to be hardly affected by the changes while Defensive options such as needed for exploration are hit hard. Especially with no real alternatives outside of T3C being available.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#435 - 2017-06-28 16:13:27 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
@Focus group, am I reading right that Fozzie has moved the warp speed bonus to the nullification subsystem?

Why was it removed from the non-nullified sub? This removes the ability for a T3 to travel fast.



The logs linked in the first page show the reasoning. But there's a lot of discussion still around this. Essentially it's a tip to the nullified subs agility sucking.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#436 - 2017-06-28 16:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
@Focus group, am I reading right that Fozzie has moved the warp speed bonus to the nullification subsystem?

Why was it removed from the non-nullified sub? This removes the ability for a T3 to travel fast.



The logs linked in the first page show the reasoning. But there's a lot of discussion still around this. Essentially it's a tip to the nullified subs agility sucking.


I understand that the warp bonus is being added to the nullification sub because there were concerned that the align time penalty associated with that sub would kill hunter killer gameplay in null sec...

What i do not understand is why the warp speed bonus had to be removed from the Hyperspatial subsystem, at the same time?

This completely removes the ability for T3s to travel quickly across multiple systems. Currently on TQ the bonus to warp speed is too weak, so that sub hardly ever got used. With the re-balance it should have been buffed to something like 15% per level to make it a useful bonus... but instead it's just going to be removed?
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2017-06-28 18:52:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
@Focus group, am I reading right that Fozzie has moved the warp speed bonus to the nullification subsystem?

Why was it removed from the non-nullified sub? This removes the ability for a T3 to travel fast.



The logs linked in the first page show the reasoning. But there's a lot of discussion still around this. Essentially it's a tip to the nullified subs agility sucking.


I understand that the warp bonus is being added to the nullification sub because there were concerned that the align time penalty associated with that sub would kill hunter killer gameplay in null sec...

What i do not understand is why the warp speed bonus had to be removed from the chassis optimisation subsystem, at the same time?

This completely removes the ability for T3s to travel quickly across multiple systems. Currently on TQ the bonus to warp speed is too weak, so that sub hardly ever got used. With the re-balance it should have been buffed to something like 15% per level to make it a useful bonus... but instead it's just going to be removed?

Unfortunately we can't mix and match bonuses and trade-offs as we would like. For example giving more points to defense and exploration and less to offense (similar to this completely unrelated image just to give a visual illustration, I'm really not really good when I need to explain things) - subsystems are not good for this, even if it could work better in some cases, and skills could give more points to distribute.

Multiple subsystems of the same ship giving redundant bonuses feels kind of uncreative and lazy.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#438 - 2017-06-28 21:53:17 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
@Focus group, am I reading right that Fozzie has moved the warp speed bonus to the nullification subsystem?

Why was it removed from the non-nullified sub? This removes the ability for a T3 to travel fast.



The logs linked in the first page show the reasoning. But there's a lot of discussion still around this. Essentially it's a tip to the nullified subs agility sucking.


I understand that the warp bonus is being added to the nullification sub because there were concerned that the align time penalty associated with that sub would kill hunter killer gameplay in null sec...

What i do not understand is why the warp speed bonus had to be removed from the chassis optimisation subsystem, at the same time?

This completely removes the ability for T3s to travel quickly across multiple systems. Currently on TQ the bonus to warp speed is too weak, so that sub hardly ever got used. With the re-balance it should have been buffed to something like 15% per level to make it a useful bonus... but instead it's just going to be removed?

Unfortunately we can't mix and match bonuses and trade-offs as we would like. For example giving more points to defense and exploration and less to offense (similar to this completely unrelated image just to give a visual illustration, I'm really not really good when I need to explain things) - subsystems are not good for this, even if it could work better in some cases, and skills could give more points to distribute.

Multiple subsystems of the same ship giving redundant bonuses feels kind of uncreative and lazy.



Unimaginitive and uncreative has ruled this abbreviated process, frankly the biggest waste of my time to follow since the RML threadnaught. I had hoped to get back to using these ships as I did enjoy flying them before the content lockout in HS. With the min/max leaning towards overheat always and the cold stats getting shoved steadily closer to the toilet, I don't think this will do anything meaningful, unless of course you live in null.

And where is the industry info?
Val Mech
New April Moon
#439 - 2017-06-29 11:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Val Mech
Hello All! I want to pay my 5 cents.
In current WiP meta I cant reproduce 2 mostly popular pve Proteus fits:

[Proteus, PVE Rails]

Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Reactive Armor Hardener
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Dark Blood Energized Explosive Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Gistum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery

250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator II

Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hornet II x5
Vespa II x5

and

[Proteus, PVE Rails+Drones]

Corpum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Dark Blood Energized Explosive Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Tracking Computer II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery

250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
Auto Targeting System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Nanobot Accelerator II

Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Gecko x1
Hornet II x3
Vespa II x1

Current WiP Nanobot sub give +1M +1L against Plating sub +2L.
-1 low slot for active armor tanking sub? Are you seriously?! Why, CCP? WHYYYY???!!!

And secondly, I cant reproduce very popular pve Incursion HQ Loki fit:

[Loki, HQ LFAF]

Damage Control II
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy 800mm Steel Plates
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Tracking Computer II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Projectile Burst Aerator II

Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


Acolyte II x5

If you dont make changes, then you will destroy a huge sphere of pve ​​gameplay on T3Cs.
Devs, what you think about this?
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#440 - 2017-06-29 17:24:38 UTC
Blazemonger wrote:
One of the suggestions seen here that I miss in the discussion on the FC is the option to allow T3C to refit without the need for a Mobile depot. There may be technical reasons which prevent this, but it would make things a lot more smooth. I'd understand this would induce a timer where the ship is immobilized due to re-calibration or whatever you want to make the reason. It would however offer some 'protection' when on DScan only the ship is visible and not a MD as well (kind of gives away the refit).

Making them able to refit on their own would give them a huge advantage over everyone else. There should be serious limitations for this.

For example:
- the cooldown time of the self-fit mode is 1 hour (at least) that may or may not can be modified by T3C related skills
- while in self-fit mode, the ships shouldn't be able to move, dock or activate any modules, and I think the level-based bonuses shouldn't apply either
- after a short setup time (10 seconds maybe) the self-fit mode is unlimited, but you can't exit (which also takes 10 seconds) it if your fit is invalid - having modules in non-existing slots, having modules fit that the new subsystems don't allow, having too many or the wrong kind of weapons etc...

The only way of doing this is making the ship a too easy target while it's in refit mode, so a mobile depot would be much safer, rendering the self-fitting ability almost worthless.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.