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Am I the only one who thinks Vargur dps is way too low?
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Requis
Splash Zone WH-Ops
#1 - 2017-05-29 22:55:19 UTC
I mean, I spent half a year training for Vargur, and the dps is 200 less than my Machariel EASY. I just fitted it up normally for pve, and even with a collision accelerator and the dps with Phased plasma is 689 and with T2 is 884. My Machariel will put out over 1K with Hail.

4x 800 AC II

3x Gyrostab II
2x Tracking

Collision accelerator
Burst areator

I don't get it
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2017-05-30 01:01:37 UTC
Something doesn't seem quite right. The Vargur is going to do lower damage than the Mach, but it has pretty stellar application. However, that's pretty low. My skills, the Vargur pushes 731 DPS with 3 T2 damage mods and non-faction high damage ammo so there's something going weird with your support skills.

Furthermore, don't fit T1 damage rigs. A single T2 damage (or RoF rig, which is the better idea) will always do better than two T1s, which each come in lower in the stack than damage mods. Adding T1 burst and collision to my fit pushes me to 773 DPS. Just adding a T2 burst pushes up to 791 and leaves calibration for whatever else.

Throw on a bastion and now you're looking at almost 800DPS at 4.3+63 with a tracking...score... of 8.8.

A similarly fit Mach gets 865 at 3.8+61 but tracking is "only" 6.75. Fairly comparable, and the Vargur can facetank, you know, anything.

The Machariel is clearly superior if you favor a mobile play style, but the Vargur is a totally valid option.
Requis
Splash Zone WH-Ops
#3 - 2017-05-30 01:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Requis
Exactly. It's weird. Here are my skills. Let me know if anything is missing. And know that these are the very same skills that give me that amazing dps with Machariel. And bastion doesn't seem to affect my dps...
I just can't imagine such an awesome ship having such a suck dps. I mean, even 800 is super low
Skills
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4 - 2017-05-30 01:25:38 UTC
the mach is a pirate ship it gets more dps and mobility, the vargur gets better tracking and tank.

also add some implants, two +3, 4, or 5% implants will give a nice damage boost. EFT gives this 1271 dps with the 5% implants and 2x garde IIs active. A mach can break 1400 dps but it gets a nicer drone bay, the gun dps is pretty close.

[Vargur, Varg copy 2]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Warrior II x5
Garde II x2

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2017-05-30 11:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
nvm you havent trained half the skills
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#6 - 2017-05-30 11:47:04 UTC
Requis wrote:
Exactly. It's weird. Here are my skills. Let me know if anything is missing.


For DPS in the graph, the following skills are missing:

Surgical Strike 4-5 is missing...
Rapid Firing 5 is missing...

for DPS projection in the field, the following skills are missing:

Sharpshoot 5 is missing...
Trjectory Analysis is missing ...

Bastion increases optimal range and fall off... this means, a better damage application as well :)
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2017-05-30 12:06:27 UTC
hes missing more than that he only has marauders 2 and ac spec 2
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#8 - 2017-05-30 13:46:23 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
hes missing more than that he only has marauders 2 and ac spec 2


Marauder is increasing tracking and repair effectivness... you are right!
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#9 - 2017-05-30 14:16:34 UTC
The theoretical DPS with OP's fit and with max skills is 929. With his skills it should be 793. So something is off.

Also. You can switch the Burst Aerator for a tech 2 one and then put something in the other rig slot. It only costs 27mil and puts the theoretical DPS to 953.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Eleanor Roscommon
Bleu Femme Felis
#10 - 2017-05-30 22:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Eleanor Roscommon
All this about the dps . . .

. . .but what is the volley?

It seems many people forget about the volley. The volley is also very important, and should be mentioned when there is discussin of dps.

A ship could have low dps, but high volley, and vice versa.

Sometimes it doesn't matter too much on the dps, when you take something out with one volley.

E.G. : (all skills at V)

A Vargur with 800's could give 763dps with 2482 volley: with 1400's, the dps is593, but the volley is 9828. (of course with faction damage mods and implants all the numbers would go up.)

-El
Hannah McPewPew
U2EZ
#11 - 2017-05-31 03:04:46 UTC
Low dps is sort of a penatly for zero-cap consumption, decent range for short-range weapons and some sort of selectable damage flavor.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#12 - 2017-05-31 09:35:43 UTC
Eleanor Roscommon wrote:
All this about the dps . . .

. . .but what is the volley?


I think OP intends to use it for PVE. In which case volley rarely matters.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#13 - 2017-05-31 15:09:53 UTC
Hannah McPewPew wrote:
Low dps is sort of a penatly for zero-cap consumption, decent range for short-range weapons and some sort of selectable damage flavor.


HI is comparing it to another projectile boat.

Pilot side your skills are not there

Ship side vargur dps is same as maelstrom and maelstrom isn't known for it stellar dps further more unlike maelstrom or mach it can't launch 4 sentry / heavy drones.

That puts it firmly in a mediocre dps output with great application and tank,definitely workable.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2017-05-31 15:27:47 UTC
its a shield tanked ship it can easily get 1000+ with 800s
then again
im comapring that to an armor mach lol
which is the way it should be ;3
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-05-31 15:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Mieyli
im gonna go on a little rant and feel free to kill me if you want
we all know paper dps isnt everything
tracking and range are more important than raw dps
but there are other things more important too
such as locking range (sebos)
and application (tcs webs tps)
and mobility (dual prop)

shield tank might give you the biggest numbers in eft
but when it comes to killing stuff you know a 10km difference between 40km and 50km can be the difference between 300 physical dps and 700 physical dps whether its bad tracking or good falloff

the midslots are way more important
even with rails @ 90km
a single tc can double your dps with either tracking or range
if you have a targeting range of 80km
youre doing 0 dps to a target 100km away

its not about the raw numbers
all aspects of your build will affect the way you can apply damage to a target
even an mwd can be a huge dps increase when you get into firing range in 5 seconds compared to 20
thats a whole extra 15 seconds of dps (hypothetical dont ask for evidence)

in the end only you will know what works best for you but
when it comes to tank
you get webbed
you get pointed
youre screwed

its never worth losing a 500m+ isk ship for the sake of a little extra dps

overtank your ship and overapply your damage
you will do well
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#16 - 2017-05-31 16:08:03 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Eleanor Roscommon wrote:
All this about the dps . . .

. . .but what is the volley?


I think OP intends to use it for PVE. In which case volley rarely matters.



Roscommon is correct. Volley makes all the difference in the world. When I run L4s in my Golem, because of the volley, not the dps, I one shot almost all targets.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Sara Starbuck
Adamantine Creations
#17 - 2017-05-31 22:41:54 UTC
Too much volley dmg isnt good either, ill take couple rounds into targets over massive overkill anyday. Though on missileboats its bit different with delayed damage.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#18 - 2017-05-31 23:00:27 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
im gonna go on a little rant and feel free to kill me if you want
we all know paper dps isnt everything
tracking and range are more important than raw dps
but there are other things more important too
such as locking range (sebos)
and application (tcs webs tps)
and mobility (dual prop)

shield tank might give you the biggest numbers in eft
but when it comes to killing stuff you know a 10km difference between 40km and 50km can be the difference between 300 physical dps and 700 physical dps whether its bad tracking or good falloff

the midslots are way more important
even with rails @ 90km
a single tc can double your dps with either tracking or range
if you have a targeting range of 80km
youre doing 0 dps to a target 100km away

its not about the raw numbers
all aspects of your build will affect the way you can apply damage to a target
even an mwd can be a huge dps increase when you get into firing range in 5 seconds compared to 20
thats a whole extra 15 seconds of dps (hypothetical dont ask for evidence)

in the end only you will know what works best for you but
when it comes to tank
you get webbed
you get pointed
youre screwed

its never worth losing a 500m+ isk ship for the sake of a little extra dps

overtank your ship and overapply your damage
you will do well


the thing is with 800mm acs on a mach or vargur you get a ton of range and tracking at least compared to the average mission npc. And that is why I love the mach so much, it has the speed that it can control pretty much every engagement and get into areas where it can deal its high dps. webs/points so what, I can mjd out of that, or launch drones and kill them, heck if they point and don't web I can mwd into low transversal and blap the pointing frig. And in the vargur you get enough tank you can face tank just about anything.

And I would hope you don't need a sebo for lock range in an ac ship.

as for volley or dps, in a turret ship I'll take dps almost every time. turrets deactivate as soon as the target dies so you can begin shooting the next target. Arty mach has a ton of volley and range, but it is pretty poor for most missions as the dps is pretty low. A lot of the time the difference between dps and volley has a lot to do with which weapon systems you pick. I have a 1600 dps blaster kronos that is a ton of fun for a few missions, but it is wildly inappropriate for most missions.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2017-06-01 09:09:02 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
as for volley or dps, in a turret ship I'll take dps almost every time. turrets deactivate as soon as the target dies so you can begin shooting the next target. Arty mach has a ton of volley and range, but it is pretty poor for most missions as the dps is pretty low.


I'll actually go a step further: in almost all missions, all other things being equal, I'd actually prefer lower volley.

Think of it this way. You have two weapon systems, one that does 10,000 damage every 10 seconds and one that does 1000 damage each second. If it requires, say, 5000 to break a given target the high volley weapon is actually wasting half its theoretical DPS waiting to find out what to shoot next.

Ok, but volley avoids repairs, right? Ok, sure. Let's take a 20,000 ehp target with a 10% chance of repping 1000 every 5 seconds. The high volley weapon has an 81% chance of breaking it in 10 seconds with a 10 second cooldown for the next target. The low volley weapon has a 65.61% chance of breaking the target in 20 seconds but only needs 1 extra second to knock off the rep (if one has occurred; add a second for each additional 10% role actually landing). If the high volley weapon hits its 19% chance of repping it has to wait a whole 10 seconds to correct for it.

So yeah. Overall, I'd rather have continuous damage except in very niche cases (Scarlet of course; not sure if standard missions offer another good example). Throw in the other tradeoffs of artillery and suddenly falloff-bonused ACs look damn good. Unless, of course, you just have to have more range and really don't want to close the distance.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#20 - 2017-06-01 12:23:46 UTC
1. skills. get them to V. at least Surgical Strike & Rapid Firing, then autocanon spec to IV and trajactory analysis (this doesn't show in numbrs but affects the DPS a lot for projectiles)

2. Try 4 gyros and 1Te. 4 gyros + 1 T2 burst aerator I think is the best on paper DPS combination (you can argue about the 'efficiency' of the 4th gyro but it certainly is higher than without it). Normally I would not recommend such paper DPS setup over actual application, but Vargur has plenty of bonus and mid slots for TC to more than make up for a missing TE in the low.

3. This may be off topic, but I'm not sure I understand why you trained into/got Vargur in the first place if DPS is what you are looking for and Mach is obviously the king when it comes to it, not to mention its warp speed bonuses and mobility also helping a lot with mission times.

Surely, 689 DPS is a low number and needs to be looked at , yes, but while this could improve, I think maybe it's not the right thing to try to match Vargur DPS to Mach DPS. If you see the benefits of using Vargur in other ways than raw DPS numbers, I think there are plenty you can find that kind of compensates for the DPS 'trade off'. If you are after raw DPS numbers only there's no reason to spend half a year training into Vargur when you can fly Mach more easily and with less investment.

Also, try to work on a fit using max skill template, to check what the theoretical optimisation would be like as the end result. Then you can think about how to skill up for that or fiddle with things to match your skills better.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
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