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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2017-06-01 16:54:11 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I see a lot of people here talking about Red Frog like they have a clue.

But they don't.

Speculate all you want guys, but RF is not going to come in here and give you info that will allow people to figure out how to bypass their filters. They have their system and it works for them. Mostly because they don't advertise what it is.

Fun to read though. So by all means, keep talking out your collective asses. If for nothing else than my personal amusement.

Mr Epeen Cool


I don't expect them too, but apparently the claim that "nothing gets delivered to a citadel even by Red Frog" is false.

And that is how most unimaginative people argue. "Oh, I can't see how it could work, therefore it must not work." And they cling to that belief like some sort of ward against "evil" even when presented with information that completely refutes their initial belief.

The point is that there is a way for people to separate the good courier contracts issuers from the bad. Thus, there is really no problem....as Salvos was ironically posting the other day.

There really is no problem here. People are figuring out ways around the stated problem, except the OP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#602 - 2017-06-01 17:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Toobo wrote:


2) Players make rules/norms/whatever.

BS. Total BS.

Someone pointed it out correctly before, but only got half right. CCP makes EULA and TOS, and players make whatever else you call it like rules/norms/etc. But guess what, CCP can change their EULA/TOS at any given time as they please and ban anyone from the game as they see fit and make any activity a bannable offence if they choose to do so. So erm yeah, whatever you build in sandbox is just that, made out of sand and will collapse when the sandbox owner decides to shake it a bit.

Whatever 'player content' you create can be later ruled out by CCP, and if they feel it is fitting for them to do so, they can wipe your assets and wallets, even those accumulated during the time where the game mechanics made it possible to do so.

CCP owns everything in game and they owe you nothing (maybe except the access to server, which is what you pay for really)

You can do many things in EVE, and it's one of the best sandbox games I've ever experienced in any platform. But if you (the playeer) are a king, CCP is like God. You can rule in any way you want, but God can change everything for you on a whim and don't owe you an apology.


* I'm not saying this to say CCP is bad/whatever, pretty much all games are ran like this and CCP is not the only bad one here. But I think EVE players have that extra layer of illusion that this game is any different.



You do realize that you contradict yourself here.

Nobody denies that CCP has created the EULA and TOS, nor do they deny that CCP can change both of those at their discretion. Further, the EULA and TOS are very sparse in terms of what players can and can't do in game.

However, you then go on to note that given the EULA and TOS players go on to develop their own set of "rules" in game. Rules for what is and is not acceptable. For example, where you can rat when you join Alliance XYZ. What is necessary to join corporation ABC, etc. Yes, that stuff may very well change when the EULA and TOS change, but thankfully CCP changes those things infrequently and the last one was with a warning and lead time so players could wind down various activities.

Yes, CCP own everything. But CCP has also been extremely liberal in what people do with "their" stuff. As such, we get all sorts of things happening. And some (most?) of it CCP either did not intend or anticipate.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#603 - 2017-06-01 17:05:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


You shouldn't read too far between the lines. The point of my comment was for people who are so risk averse to use NPC stations, those who are willing to take risks can use citadels. These decisions are based on individual risk preferences which...as the word "individual" should indicate vary by individual.


That's of course how it should work, but as you can see from many in this thread it won't. People always want to have their cakes (ie the more lucrative business of trading with and between citadels rather than npc stations) and to eat them too (ie have mechanically enforced safeties and guarantees against loss).

Everyone with sense knows that this seeking of safety and comfort (in the guise of 'game balance') goes against the idea of a game (a thing you can win or lose based on your actions, inactions, knowledge and/or ignorance). Many will even acknowledge that CCPs catering to people's requests for such safety have made the game less fun and less interesting (and thus less likely to attract new players who tend to show up when there are either epic battles or tales of extreme skullduggery).

CCP will get around to doing something about what's being talked about here, they always do in the end, it's just a shame that people would rather beg for help/intervention than learn to use mechanics they don't like against the people they don't like in some kind of way.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#604 - 2017-06-01 17:22:04 UTC
I do love all this rubbish about risk that certain people sprout forth about.

What I did was move stuff for people I knew well, they trusted me and I trusted them, there was no need for collateral because if I did something wrong I would make it right for them, if I did everything right and they lost their stuff then it was how it was. I never lost a single cargo. The thing is that I moved stuff how I wanted to move it, so if it was a heavy load of expensive stuff I woudl split it up.

I see Jenn arguing like mad that people are asking for:

Quote:
ie have mechanically enforced safeties and guarantees against loss).


But for me being locked into a courier contract like that was a mechanically enforced guarantee of loss and easy pickings for others which is why I did not do it.

People like Jenn and others miss the important thing that mechanics need to have balance, for me being locked into the ship to transport stuff by the size was not acceptable, neither was a system of collateral which had no relation to the items involved, so my finely honed sense of risk said no way.

I had a limited number of clients and I would also move bling ships and stuff especially for people caught in war decs, it was not that well paid as I did it for friends and pretty sporadic, but it added to my wealth and was different game play. During the early period that I did this, I did use freighters, but dropped them completely once I decided that there was no counter to bumping.

So for them deciding that there is no end counter for my situation is risk averse as some sort of cry baby comment, well there you go dumb is dumb... and it is always the same people...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#605 - 2017-06-01 17:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:
I do love all this rubbish about risk that certain people sprout forth about.

What I did was move stuff for people I knew well, they trusted me and I trusted them, there was no need for collateral because if I did something wrong I would make it right for them, if I did everything right and they lost their stuff then it was how it was. I never lost a single cargo. The thing is that I moved stuff how I wanted to move it, so if it was a heavy load of expensive stuff I woudl split it up.

I see Jenn arguing like mad that people are asking for:

Quote:
ie have mechanically enforced safeties and guarantees against loss).


But for me being locked into a courier contract like that was a mechanically enforced guarantee of loss and easy pickings for others which is why I did not do it.

People like Jenn and others miss the important thing that mechanics need to have balance, for me being locked into the ship to transport stuff by the size was not acceptable, neither was a system of collateral which had no relation to the items involved, so my finely honed sense of risk said no way.

I had a limited number of clients and I would also move bling ships and stuff especially for people caught in war decs, it was not that well paid as I did it for friends and pretty sporadic, but it added to my wealth and was different game play. During the early period that I did this, I did use freighters, but dropped them completely once I decided that there was no counter to bumping.

So for them deciding that there is no end counter for my situation is risk averse as some sort of cry baby comment, well there you go dumb is dumb... and it is always the same people...


And here we have Dracvlad:

"Trust is important....but lets have mechanics that remove the need for that trust."

As for the "enforced loss" that can be said about a substantial part of the game. Once your super cap is bubbled and 100 dreads are on field you are pretty much guaranteed a loss. We must clearly "balance" these mechanics. Roll If you were dumb enough to end up being bumped in your freighter with 7.3 billion ISK In cargo you are pretty much guaranteed going to die. Clearly we need to "balance" this mechanic. Roll Jita contract scams spammed in local, once you accept them you are screwed. Clearly we need to "balance" that mechanic. Roll The margin trading scam, once you buy the over priced item to sell to the over priced buy order you are guaranteed a loss. Clearly we need to "balance" that mechanic. Roll

The short version is: I screwed up, but I should still have a way to remove my gonads from the chopping block even though I screwed up. In some cases I screwed up repeatedly.

Whatever. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#606 - 2017-06-01 18:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Let me repeat it so even the most idiotic troll can get it.

The courier contract system is a mechanic, that mechanic due to certain restrictions, such as cargo size imposes increased level of risk, most notably that which prevents you from splitting up the cargo into less appetising chunks, for me that simple fact along with the lack of real knowledge on the value of the cargo are failures in this mechanic and thus makes the risk too great.

What we have here is a mechanically enforced increased risk, so my suggestion is of course to offset that imbalance which is simply a game generated assessment of the value of the cargo carried to compare against the collateral, by that means I can assess the risk of being locked out of a citadel, because all I would lose is the difference between the real value and the collateral and if it was too out of wrack I would not take the contract. At the moment this does not allow you to control risk.

I had a good look at the ways to assess risk in terms of hauling to player owned structures and talked to numerous people who did this.


Surely even the most idiotic troll cannot attempt to equate this with a war combat situation, where is the mechanic in Teckos's example that forced the Super into that position, do you mean using it to entosis something or blap a POCO, both can be done with smaller ships, while in my example I am stuck with having to use the most vulnerable ship possible, as I said dumb is dumb and in the case of Teckos even dumber than that. Roll


Quote:
As for the "enforced loss" that can be said about a substantial part of the game. Once your super cap is bubbled and 100 dreads are on field you are pretty much guaranteed a loss. We must clearly "balance" these mechanics


You really are rather bad at this mate, sometimes I read your posts because I see them as having the same level of looney toons as Jenn and that says something....

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#607 - 2017-06-01 18:37:30 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I wear a safety pin and need a safe place......

....



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#608 - 2017-06-01 18:44:40 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I wear a safety pin and need a safe place......

....



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.



And talking about dumb here is a very old very salty useless bitter vet being dumb yet again.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#609 - 2017-06-01 18:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:

Surely even the most idiotic troll cannot attempt to equate this with a war combat situation, where is the mechanic in Teckos's example that forced the Super into that position....


Where is the mechanic that forced the hauler to accept the scam contract? Where is the mechanic that forced the freighter pilot to put 7.3 billion in ISK in cargo value into his freighter? Where is the mechanic that forced the scrub to accept a Jita scam contract? Where is the mechanic that forced a ninny to buy the over priced good to try and fill the margin trading scam bogus buy order. The answer is there is no mechanic, it was the players own foolishness.

It is the same thing nitwit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#610 - 2017-06-01 18:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Mr Epeen wrote:
I see a lot of people here talking about Red Frog like they have a clue.

But they don't.

Speculate all you want guys, but RF is not going to come in here and give you info that will allow people to figure out how to bypass their filters. They have their system and it works for them. Mostly because they don't advertise what it is.

Fun to read though. So by all means, keep talking out your collective asses. If for nothing else than my personal amusement.

Mr Epeen Cool
While it's not specifically Red Frog's white list and criteria, the information is publicly available for one of their subsidiaries Black Frog Logistics.

It's probably fairly safe to assume that Red Frog's criteria are similar.
Quote:
Black Frog Logistics will currently accept contracts going to/from citadels owned by the following:
5th. Division (alliance)
BOT EXECS (corp)
Brigade of Outer Space Production (corp)
HIgh Sec Care Bears (corp)
HISCB Holding (corp)
Lap Dancers (corp)
Mercenary Coalition Holding Corp (corp)
Mogul Holdings (corp)
Natural Trading II (corp)
New Eden Trading Company. (alliance)
Phoenix Rising Fleet (corp)
Red-Frog (alliance)

Requirements to have your Corporation added to this list:
Your Alliance must have more than 300 members and have Black Frog Logistics set blue.
The Corporation that owns the citadel must have more than 100 members (or be the alliance's exec corp).
Your Corporation must allow Black Frog Logistics to dock free of charge in their citadel(s) at all times.
If you are interested in adding your citadel(s) to our service area have your corp ceo or listed diplomat evemail Lyn Fel.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#611 - 2017-06-01 18:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Baaldor wrote:



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.


You haven't missed much. If Luke Skywalker had been an EVE player and lived in high sec, Star Wars would have been about 2 minutes long.

It would be the story of a young man on Tatooine that looks up into the sky one night and says "NOPE, not going there, the Empire is too unbalanced and there is no guarantee that "the Force " (if that's even a thing) is going to let me succeed, so I'm going to stay down here where it's nice and safe and comfortable and Farm this nice safe moisture out of this nice safe desert. Screw saving the Galaxy even if it means not being able to passionately make out with long lost siblings!"
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#612 - 2017-06-01 18:53:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Baaldor wrote:



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.


You haven't missed much.

If Luke Skywalker had been an EVE player and lived in high sec, Star Wars would have been about 2 minutes long.
It would be the story of a young man on Tatooine that looks up into the sky one night and says "NOPE, not going there, the Empire is to unbalanced and there is no guarantee that "the Force " (if that's even a thing) is going to let me succeed, so I'm going to stay down here where it's nice and safe and comfortable and Farm this nice safe moisture out of this nice safe desert. Screw saving the Galaxy!"


Except I don't live in hisec....

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#613 - 2017-06-01 18:55:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I wear a safety pin and need a safe place......

....



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.



And talking about dumb here is a very old very salty useless bitter vet being dumb yet again.


Glad to see you have finally achieved SJW level 5 finally.

And you used dumb twice, apparently you got all excited and repeated your self.

And ease up on the old bit, Christ, birthdays hurt after a bit, especially when you started this crappy game in your thirties and now getting AARP mail...and still have to put up with sandy c;nts like your self.

Oh and good to see you again!!!!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#614 - 2017-06-01 18:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
Teckos Pech wrote:

.


EDIT: I deleted a long rambling as I thought it was opening of an old can of worms.

tl; dr, I contracdict myself becasue I have contradicting feelings. On one hand I feel there's still a lot of freedom in EVE that goes beyond many other games. But on the other hand I feel as below (which is the final paragraph I will leave intact from my post)

"... I feel like quite a few things got hammered away inch by inch. Each time most people felt it was a sensible decision that CCP made, 'for the good of the game'. But after years, with an accumulated list of such little things that got taken away, things do feel a bit different, for me anyways. :p"

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Skorpynekomimi
#615 - 2017-06-01 19:01:33 UTC
Okay, so. 31 pages of this, and you've gotten NOWHERE with the debate. Why are you wasting bandwidth?

Go biomass yourselves before I'm tempted to put bounties on you.

Economic PVP

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2017-06-01 19:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Baaldor wrote:



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.


You haven't missed much.

If Luke Skywalker had been an EVE player and lived in high sec, Star Wars would have been about 2 minutes long.
It would be the story of a young man on Tatooine that looks up into the sky one night and says "NOPE, not going there, the Empire is to unbalanced and there is no guarantee that "the Force " (if that's even a thing) is going to let me succeed, so I'm going to stay down here where it's nice and safe and comfortable and Farm this nice safe moisture out of this nice safe desert. Screw saving the Galaxy!"


Except I don't live in hisec....


Wow, now I am impressed.

Hey everyone, Dracvlad does not live in HS! Aren't you all impressed? Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#617 - 2017-06-01 19:05:23 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I wear a safety pin and need a safe place......

....



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.



And talking about dumb here is a very old very salty useless bitter vet being dumb yet again.


Glad to see you have finally achieved SJW level 5 finally.

And you used dumb twice, apparently you got all excited and repeated your self.

And ease up on the old bit, Christ, birthdays hurt after a bit, especially when you started this crappy game in your thirties and now getting AARP mail...and still have to put up with sandy c;nts like your self.

Oh and good to see you again!!!!



I am about as far away as you can get from a SJW mate that it made me chuckle a lot. In any case I am glad to see a vet back in the game, even one as salty and as bitter as you. Lol

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#618 - 2017-06-01 19:10:00 UTC
Toobo wrote:


But on the other hand I feel like quite a few things got hammered away inch by inch. Each time most people felt it was a sensible decision that CCP made, 'for the good of the game'. But after years, with an accumulated list of such little things that got taken away, things do feel a bit different, for me anyways. :p


I feel that way too.

CCP and the people who support ever more "tweaks" (nerfs) seem to not see the forest for the trees. On it's own a mailbox to someone else's citadel doesn't seem like a big deal till you realize it is just the next little thing going in the wrong direction. CCP should be opening up ways for people to screw with each other (and get screwed back in turn) instead of adding comfort and safety mechanics.

EVE was a growing game when it was easier to screw with people, and it was easier to screw back because there are always something the 'bad guys' didn't know and a smart player could use that. Safing up the game doesn't make the safety crowd happier (this is impossible, it doesn't stop the 'screw with folks' people (they just figure out new ways to screw with folks) either. Worst of all , safing up the game makes the BAD GUYS safer too...

The people who get shafted are the creative people who lived to find the gankers/scammers/awoxxers flaws and didn't need CCPs help in the 1st place.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#619 - 2017-06-01 19:11:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Baaldor wrote:



BAHAHAHA, holy crap, very happy to see things don't change much.


You haven't missed much.

If Luke Skywalker had been an EVE player and lived in high sec, Star Wars would have been about 2 minutes long.
It would be the story of a young man on Tatooine that looks up into the sky one night and says "NOPE, not going there, the Empire is to unbalanced and there is no guarantee that "the Force " (if that's even a thing) is going to let me succeed, so I'm going to stay down here where it's nice and safe and comfortable and Farm this nice safe moisture out of this nice safe desert. Screw saving the Galaxy!"


Except I don't live in hisec....


Wow, now I am impressed.

Hey everyone, Dracvlad does not live in HS! Aren't you all impressed. Roll


I'd be more impressed if this ancient forum didn't make you read stupid post by people you ignored years ago just because someone else quotes them.

TL;DR, for everyone's (mainly my own)sanity don't quote Dracvlad please.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#620 - 2017-06-01 19:13:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
TL;DR, for everyone's (mainly my own)sanity don't quote Dracvlad please.
DV;DR?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack