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When do WH open on the other side
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#1 - 2017-05-20 10:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
I was pretty sure that even if you did not jump through the hole that after a few minutes the K162 would show up in the other system. now some people are telling me that you have to jump through the hole for it to show up what way is true?



found it nvm

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Jonn Duune
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#2 - 2017-05-21 05:45:11 UTC
From what I know, it works like this:

1) A wormhole spawns new, and an invisible timer starts counting down with a range of 1-4 hours (stacked more towards the 4hr).
2) If you scan, warp to the wormhole, and do ANYTHING but jump, the wormhole will continue not to have spawned on the otherside (unless the timer has already reached zero)
3) If the WH timer expires, or someone jumps the wormhole, the other side spawns.

My name is Jonn Duune, and I wholeheartedly support the message posted above.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2017-05-21 08:21:55 UTC
no timer starts until it has been warped to (the wh doesn't even exist until then) once warped to it will not show up until you jump it. this lasts until the WH has 15hrs left at that point every few minutes there is a chance for the K162 to spawn. took me a bit but managed to find the dev blog

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cngaar Aya
Wormlife Freeport Operations
Wormlife
#4 - 2017-05-22 01:23:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no timer starts until it has been warped to (the wh doesn't even exist until then) once warped to it will not show up until you jump it. this lasts until the WH has 15hrs left at that point every few minutes there is a chance for the K162 to spawn. took me a bit but managed to find the dev blog


This is my understanding of the mechanic as well.

Lot of conflicting reports out there, but this is consistent with my research and experimentation.
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#5 - 2017-05-22 11:44:58 UTC
The wormhole opens on the other side when you simply initiate warp to it...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2017-05-22 11:52:57 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
The wormhole opens on the other side when you simply initiate warp to it...


Not for a couple of years now

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-05-22 11:56:11 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
The wormhole opens on the other side when you simply initiate warp to it...

2012 called and it wants it's mechanic back. Has not worked that way for a long time mate.

There is no Bob.

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-05-22 12:20:13 UTC
Don't be too hard on him ccp sucks at making mechanics clear in game. You miss one dev blog and you'll never know a change happened

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lada Harkonnen
Spice Guild Navigators
#9 - 2017-05-22 13:42:41 UTC
Fremen always doing to much spice
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#10 - 2017-05-22 16:59:37 UTC
Lada Harkonnen wrote:
Fremen always doing to much spice

Yea, indeed. I somehow placed my recollection back too far. I do remember now that it does not spawn until you jump. Woops.

ATREIDES!
Haile Korhal
Professional Amateurs
#11 - 2017-05-22 20:38:16 UTC
So my organization operates on the premise that, at 15 hours of life remaining we assume the wormhole to be open on the other side. Given CCP Fozzie states (below) that at 15 hours of life left a wormhole has a random chance every few minutes to spawn on the other side. So that, if we roll a connection that has 16 hours +/- 10%, within 1 hour it'll open. Likewise if we roll a 24 hour hole it'll have 9 hours of closed state.

However upon reviewing the statements from CCP it would appear to be different. If the signature is never warped to, it will never open on the other side; regardless of the age of the signature. Unfortunately there is literally no way to test if this is true as you can't know where it's going before it gets there. No experimentation whatsoever can produce an answer on whether or not the other side of the wormhole spawns from your static. So unless CCP says anything on the contrary, we just have to take their word for it.

What this doesn't mean is that you can assume you're safe. You're never safe in wormhole space. You may not be the only person living in your system, you may have a neutral/hostile seed in your system, etc. Wormholes can open up into your system at any moment from anywhere and a fleet could appear, or worse.

If anyone can point to anything official from CCP since 2014 that would be useful. I don't recall if they've made any other significant changes since then to wormhole spawning mechanics.

According to CCP Fozzie on the forums, dated 2014-08-06 12:57:49 UTC and beyond: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=364403

CCP Fozzie, Page 7 Post 131 wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.

We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.

We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.

CCP Fozzie, Page 11 Post 203 wrote:
Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.

CCP Fozzie, Page 11 Post 211 wrote:
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.

CCP Fozzie, Page 12 Post 240 wrote:
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.



And Hyperion Patch Notes: https://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-hyperion
And More Notes: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/

If anyone has any more info to add to the discussion that would be pretty sweet. Usually wormholers "just know" and have no evidence to back things up. And while even CCP is vague on the subject (probably on purpose) they're the closest thing to fact we have for these mechanics.

Additionally: I remember reading in CSM notes somewhere that Noobman had brought it up to CCP during one of their meetings at a summit that "an EOL hole is a content killer" and there should be another level of EOL that's not quite so uncertain. To which CCP, i believe, responded "We don't want wormholes to be too predictable." Which leads me to believe they want to keep this sort of thing vague intentionally.

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Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#12 - 2017-05-23 16:13:14 UTC
Haile Korhal wrote:
Unfortunately there is literally no way to test if this is true as you can't know where it's going before it gets there. No experimentation whatsoever can produce an answer on whether or not the other side of the wormhole spawns from your static.


There is an experiment you can make. It is very tedious and requires a bit of luck in terms that no other WH spawns, but it can be done:
- Roll all your connections, including your static.
- Don't warp to your static.
- Wait
- Wait more
- If no one warps to the new static, it will remain there, way beyond the 24 hours it was supposed to last.

Haile Korhal wrote:
And while even CCP is vague on the subject (probably on purpose) they're the closest thing to fact we have for these mechanics.


Vague? Read it again and point out where is part that you think is "vague".
It is pretty clear to me.
Haile Korhal
Professional Amateurs
#13 - 2017-05-23 18:18:51 UTC
Duo Roman wrote:
Haile Korhal wrote:
Unfortunately there is literally no way to test if this is true as you can't know where it's going before it gets there. No experimentation whatsoever can produce an answer on whether or not the other side of the wormhole spawns from your static.


There is an experiment you can make. It is very tedious and requires a bit of luck in terms that no other WH spawns, but it can be done:
- Roll all your connections, including your static.
- Don't warp to your static.
- Wait
- Wait more
- If no one warps to the new static, it will remain there, way beyond the 24 hours it was supposed to last.

So if the K162 is never spawned the wormhole never decays? Well that's an interesting point of fact. If only we could see the numbers behind it and prove it. We've had a few wormholes last 72+ hours, but we had warped to them and through them in several cases. We filed bug reports every time they did though.
Quote:

Haile Korhal wrote:
And while even CCP is vague on the subject (probably on purpose) they're the closest thing to fact we have for these mechanics.


Vague? Read it again and point out where is part that you think is "vague".
It is pretty clear to me.

Shrug I haven't the time or the marbles to explain the intricacies of CCP to you.


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Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2017-05-23 18:30:37 UTC
Haile Korhal wrote:
Duo Roman wrote:
Haile Korhal wrote:
Unfortunately there is literally no way to test if this is true as you can't know where it's going before it gets there. No experimentation whatsoever can produce an answer on whether or not the other side of the wormhole spawns from your static.


There is an experiment you can make. It is very tedious and requires a bit of luck in terms that no other WH spawns, but it can be done:
- Roll all your connections, including your static.
- Don't warp to your static.
- Wait
- Wait more
- If no one warps to the new static, it will remain there, way beyond the 24 hours it was supposed to last.

So if the K162 is never spawned the wormhole never decays? Well that's an interesting point of fact. If only we could see the numbers behind it and prove it.




no if an anomaly of any kind is never warped to it is never spawned if it is never spawned it does not start its timer.

now there is a secondary timer on the anom that is longer and will decay even if it is not warped to. this is why people dumb enough to mine in WH will only warp to one belt at a time so as to keep any others around longer

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#15 - 2017-05-23 20:08:34 UTC
Haile Korhal wrote:
So if the K162 is never spawned the wormhole never decays? Well that's an interesting point of fact. If only we could see the numbers behind it and prove it. We've had a few wormholes last 72+ hours, but we had warped to them and through them in several cases. We filed bug reports every time they did though.


If the time the WH is supposed to despawn matches with downtime then strange things happen, like a new static may appear on the same spot, with the same signature name of the old one, but leading to a different system.

If in your case the 72+ hours WH leads to the same exact system, then it's a different bug I guess.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2017-05-23 20:19:40 UTC
Duo Roman wrote:
Haile Korhal wrote:
So if the K162 is never spawned the wormhole never decays? Well that's an interesting point of fact. If only we could see the numbers behind it and prove it. We've had a few wormholes last 72+ hours, but we had warped to them and through them in several cases. We filed bug reports every time they did though.


If the time the WH is supposed to despawn matches with downtime then strange things happen, like a new static may appear on the same spot, with the same signature name of the old one, but leading to a different system.

If in your case the 72+ hours WH leads to the same exact system, then it's a different bug I guess.


not always sometimes it can just be crazy rng opening to the same system but the odds of that are so low a bug report is still a good idea

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#17 - 2017-05-23 20:22:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
this is why people dumb enough to mine in WH will only warp to one belt at a time so as to keep any others around longer


Don't you think there are big corps mining with rorqual fleets, in closed wormholes? I honestly don't think its dumb, specially because WH mining stats don't show up in the montly economy report.
Haile Korhal
Professional Amateurs
#18 - 2017-05-23 20:23:04 UTC
Yeah, we have documented it I believe 6 times, I'd have to go check the logs when I get home. But After the 4th time we started bug reporting it. Of course it's not frequent, and generally only happens on our H900 static, but our C247 has done that once as well. This is after a year plus living in the same hole and such. It's definitely a weird occurrence. A couple times it will do what you mentioned and lead to a different system but at least twice it was the same system, EoL on say Monday and healthy on say Tuesday and again on Wednesday, same bookmarks, same system, etc. Dates bookmarks made confirm, etc.

tl;dr
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2017-05-23 21:21:50 UTC
Duo Roman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
this is why people dumb enough to mine in WH will only warp to one belt at a time so as to keep any others around longer


Don't you think there are big corps mining with rorqual fleets, in closed wormholes? I honestly don't think its dumb, specially because WH mining stats don't show up in the montly economy report.



because it is far more lucrative to do in null its also safer. mining used to be an okay idea in WH when the sites were sigs. but now you have 0 warning if a cloaky fleet shows up. no probes no d-scan no nothing till you are tackled

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#20 - 2017-05-24 11:39:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
because it is far more lucrative to do in null its also safer. mining used to be an okay idea in WH when the sites were sigs. but now you have 0 warning if a cloaky fleet shows up. no probes no d-scan no nothing till you are tackled


Null mining is more lucrative, yes. But as safe as it may be in null, this knowledge of closing WHs can arguably make it safer in wormholes.
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