Intergalactic Summit

Fun that you consider your first option a "conspiracy" one and that the "3rd option" is considered the most probable... Clonejacking isn't a "conspiracy" act ?

I would more go for the 2nd option, maybe not puting this on the psychosis aspect but you never know how people evolve in their life.

His conspiracy was to kill.

I've read his earlier career and, yes, I was impressed. The man did live a life for peace, I freely admit that much.

What happened between his retirement and his death? I've had events happen to me that forced me to revaluate core beliefs of my own. I've made changes that would startle and shock those who knew me when I was a younger man. I've done things that nobody should ever have to do.

All those things change us, line by line.

Maybe something happened to him? Maybe a member of his family or a friend? Maybe he found something out about an incident from earlier in his career that changed his mind about the Caldari?

I don't know. But it wasn't a guy in a rubber Noir mask that climbed into that Nyx. And the Nyx with Alexander Noir on it was the one that smashed Malkalen station.

My question with these sorts of things is usually "who stands to benefit?"

Because so many different military-industrial corporations in both the Federation and the State would stand to make an unbelievable amount of money from a catastrophe that started a war, 3 seems probable to me. It would really only take one heartless money-grubbing executive at any of these companies to make it happen. It wouldn't even have to be the guy at the very, very top. It could've been a rogue.

2 seems probable as well, and probably the least conspiratorial option, though I studied the man a lot growing up, and he never struck me as the pathological type. So, the most believable in terms of simplicity, but not in terms of his personality..

1 seems like the conspiracy theory.

I could see why one would believe either 2 or 3.

Gallenteans, Mr. Tuulinen, can be extremely treacherous. They can build relations for years to try to get closer to you just to get a chance to shove a knife to your back when you drop the guard.

I've always held a clonejack to be the most plausible explanation. With respect to Pieter's valid point that people can re-write ourselves line by line throughout our lives, that process requires time, introspection and communication. It is also something that not everybody does with their life. There are persons in this very thread whom I have personally never noticed to be doing any evolving.

A person of strong convictions changes slowly, tortuously and torturedly, if they change at all. I cannot foresee it as likely that such a process would go unnoticed in Noir's case.

Certainly, I consider it unlikely in the extreme that if his true desire was bloodshed that he would devote such immense time and energy to the peace process in the hope that he would have an opportunity to catastrophically betray it someday. That's a plan with far too much potential to backfire, and only the most badly written of cartoon villains would attempt such a convoluted gambit - a real person with an actual agenda would not invite the possibility of a result opposite to the one they desire.

As for a sudden psychosis...Statistically speaking, that's unlikely. Quite aside from the fact that psychoses don't work that way, there's the timing to consider. For him to suffer that exact psychotic episode at that exact moment and in those exact circumstances? We must assign that scenario a vanishingly small likelihood.

Clonejacking requires only a breach of security by a determined party with sufficient resources, and there are more than enough parties out there who benefit from an unstable relationship betwen the State and the Federation, or from a weakened Ishukone. Others have pointed to Provists and Dragonaurs...I'm not so sure. The Provists weren't so potent a force at that time and the Dragonaurs were still firmly out in the cold.

But there are plenty of candidates. I could point to the any of Ishukone's corporate rivals, or even Gariushi's personal rivals. Or maybe senatorial rivals to the Federation's delegation. Then there are the Guristas, the Serpentis, extremist hawkish elements in the FIO, the Amarr Empire, Mordu's Legion or Sansha's Nation...And that's not even mentioning more outlandish ideas like independent capsuleer organizations, or ridiculous conspiracy-theory examples like the Jovians, Terrans or The Broker.

Or a single, traumatic moment.

I have watched but refrained from participating in this discussion for obvious reasons.

After all, we are all saying the same old things and trotting out the same old arguments. But, it got me to thinking why I don't attend the Malkalen theatrics?

Let me clarify my thinking.

Admiral Alexander Noir… was a murder.

More accurately he acted contrary to the intentions and interests of the Federation and is considered a war criminal. Wandering Saint killed more than six hundred thousand people. We may never know what delusion prompted Admiral Noir to commit his act of terror. His last chilling message being the only insight into his final motivation. "I have an obligation to my beloved Federation to settle accounts with this hateful race, these cursed Caldarians. For my entire life, I have mourned for Hueromont, wishing, praying, willing for the day when I could strike back on behalf of those souls who perished. Fate has bestowed upon me this grand opportunity, this great day, to make vengeance for all those who gave their lives for the Federation, the true guardian of our precious Gallentean race.... may you rest in peace now, brave souls of Hueromont, and you, kindred spirits of Nouvelle Rouvenor, knowing that I will take back what was stolen from you... Curse you, Caldari... may I take as many of you with me that I can!"

Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba… also a murder.

More accurately he acted exactly as expected by his compatriots. “To this day he is revered as a national hero and his name is one of the first things every Caldari child learns.” We know Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba motivations perfectly. “Eventually only one of his ships remained, a badly damaged fighter-carrier. In his dying breaths, Tovil-Toba directed the huge vessel down towards Gallente Prime.” An intentional act of terror that cost at least two million people their lives in the city of Hueromont.

So to Mr. Hinkelmanns observation, when I am reminded of the Malkalen ‘disaster’, I reflect on what was lost but also consider that there haven’t been any statues erected to Admiral Noir, an important difference there don't you think. One reviled... one venerated.

So I must agree with Mr. Bilko, it is appropriate when remembering one, we remember the other.

But forgive me, I ramble. In a lively, discussion a young Piot cautioned me against anger. He said, "Anger will never disappear so long as thoughts of resentment are cherished." A quote he attributed to Karin Midular.

It's good advice. It's just a pity so few of us head it.

No, he wasn't a murderer. Nor it was an act of "terror". It was an act of distraction.

How people can forget history that fast? How they can forget that when Admiral Tovil-Toba did that there was the WAR, and when Noir committed his terror act there was PEACE?!... I believe the history textbooks should be available in every store and I strongly recommend all IGS posters to learn the history first before answering! Don't shame yourself, don't shame your side, learn the facts first!

Admiral Tovil-Toba saved billions of lives from gallente oppression, giving Caldari time to evacuate the planet. He with just his vessel attacked superior invader forces, bringing the fight to their home to divert their forces away from us. He sacrificed himself to SAVE HUMAN LIVES.


On the other hand, what Noir did, it was an act of treachery, of hatred and anger. No, no sane people should be able to compare act of Noir with act of Tovil-Toba. What Noir did is the same with what Dragonaurs did when they successfully demolished Nouvelle Rouvenor... with one exception. Dragonaurs were their own organization, that doesn't belong to the State legally. While Noir represented the Federation as being the Admiral of the Federation Navy.

We can never get past the excuses, can we. Who started the war? You say it was us, we say it was you, one horror blamed for another, blamed for another, blamed for another.... By the time one turns to love the other has turned to hate, the cycle continues.

Don't forget how he also cured cancer, made the sun and the moon rise and rode the Raven Eternal to the great afterlife.
I get it you adore the man but good grief lets not attribute to him things he certainly did not do.

Actually, come to think of it, you've recently claimed that Hueromont was an accident ("having some of the debris strike a city out of happenstance"), then revenge(" all he knew was that SOME part of Gallente Prime would know what it was like to receive death from the skies. "), and now you say he single handedly brought down a government - or that at least it was entirely his merit, not of the Federation citizens who rose up against their government.. Could you decide what he did and did he do it intentionally or did he not?

And before anyone asks, yes, you have recently started to **** me off, because you interpret everything your heroes did with astounding positivity, yet you have immense trouble letting other people even think about the same about theirs. Hell, nobody here has actually considered Noir a hero, quite the opposite, but have just questioned what made him do what he did - and you can't let people even do that.